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Can you help the young man
who sent us this message?
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By David Evans (Not his real name)
I really hope that you exceed the efforts of the Christadelphians and take the time to reply to this.
I have been a fan and regular at your website for nearly a year, and has been my go-to for questions that I have had. I am very proud that you saw through the lies of the cult, and began to think for yourselves. Nothing that the Christadelphians teach, and the way that they behave is correct. It is very encouraging that you do this work.
As for my position, I am divided. Can the Bible be this infallible if these contractions are so regular? Or is it just the Christadelphians wresting the scriptures?
First and foremost, I am NOT a Christadelphian, however I am in a relationship with one who has not yet been baptised into the faith but is in a family of very devout Christadelphians.
Her father has (deleted), and being (deleted) for many years is very knowledgeable on how to debate and discuss biblical topics. While I, myself, being only (deleted) years of age do not thoroughly understand the bible, and cannot dispute his (deleted) years of researching this "kingdom", haven't the slightest clue where to start. I would consider myself being quite well researched on biblical matters, as I grew up in a church of Christ.
Which verses and topics in particular aided you to see through the Christadelphian false teachings? I cannot tackle it from a morality perspective, as my girlfriend's family have been screwed over by the Christadelphians for many years and are aware of how un-godly they can behave. It's just the doctrine that remains that they believe is gospel truth.
I thank you so much for your time, team, in reading this e-mail. I really do love my girlfriend, and her family are truly incredible people, vastly different from regular Christadelphians.
Really hoping to hear back from you, as you are a shining light in this dark world.
With best regards
David Evans (Not his real name)
I must echo John's comments above. Your girlfriends family will be pleasant and welcoming to you, as long as you appear to be accepting of their nonsense. They genuinely hope that their place in the everlasting fantasy kingdom will be cemented by attracting you into their cult.
ReplyDeleteHowever if you show signs of disagreeing with them, and worse, try and steer their daughter away from a life of compliance and subjugation, you will suddenly see their nasty side. Their daughter will be guilt tripped into dropping you like a hot potato and not allowed to see you again.
John is correct, unless your girlfriend is strong minded enough to resist a lifetime of indoctrination and stand up to her family, your relationship is doomed.
David,
ReplyDeleteMark and John are correct in their advice that your girlfriend`s parents will do all they can to make sure she becomes baptised into the CD sect. John`s comments are often (in my opinion) sometimes expressed in a forceful and over-the-top manner, but that`s John. He`s a pussy cat really, but as you know, cats have claws which can be extended and retracted as necessary. You will be discouraged strongly from associating with your girlfriend unless you show a willingness to be baptised yourself. You should not do this. I`m glad you find your girlfriend`s parents pleasant. The Christadelphian friends I have retained over the many years since leaving the Christadelphians are also pleasant. I rarely discuss my disbelief with them, and if I did so strongly, I guess some of them might fall out with me, but certainly not all. I think you should read (if you haven`t already done so) some of Bart D. Ehrman`s writings, such as "Jesus, Interrupted" or "Forged". Try to get your girlfriend to discuss what Bart has to say. Try to get her to question what she was taught as a child. How does she know this is the Truth if she hasn`t tested it? I think if she loves you as you love her then the relationship is worth preserving, but not at any cost. If she is firmly under the thumb of her parents, will she always be? You need to start to lever her out. Go to it. Good luck.
Mancott
If you remain unbaptised, your girlfriend is baptised, and you get married, the exact response will vary from family to family and ecclesia to ecclesia. There is no one size fits all template. As stated above, some will disfellowship her completely. Some will disfellowship her on the understanding that she can be received back once she acknowledges she has sinned. And some will accept both her and you (though they will probably continue to encourage you to be baptised). As for the parents, in my experience most Christadelphian parents wish to retain the best relationship they can with their children and their children's partners, even if they disagree with their life choices.
ReplyDeleteIf you remain unbelieving, it will make things more difficult, but so long as your girlfriend, her parents and the ecclesia react sanely it can probably be made to work. Whether that is wise is your call, and I'm not sure you were even asking advice on it...
To reasons for unbelief: My personal story was that I suddenly realised that when I prayed there was no way of knowing if there was someone on the other end. I then slowly over a number of years came across other reasons for doubting the Bible and the Christadelphian teachings. And very little of that gets a positive response from believers. But I think it's valuable to question how we know the Bible was inspired by God, how it got into the form it is in now, and how we know we have interpreted it correctly (after all, there are rather a lot of denominations and interpretations from the same text, and some of them view other texts as canonical as well). Be aware that while your girlfriend's father may be extremely knowledgable about traditional Christadelphian interpretations of the text, he may be less aware of current scholarly interpretations, and he may be so used to looking at scriptures through a Christadelphian lens that he can't see what it actually says.
Prophecy is particularly open to question: If it's so clear, how come Christadelphians have continually made wrong predictions based on it? How can you be sure that passages from different prophets refer to the same event and should be linked together? How do you know that prophecies like the return of Israel were talking about the second exile rather than the first exile when they were given? Why were the NT writers incorrect in expecting the return of Christ in their lifetime?
If you haven't read Unbelievable (linked in the sidebar) I would recommend it. It's free, it's not too long, it contains various reasons to disbelieve the Christadelphian account, and Rob also talks about his personal experiences and the responses of the Christadelphian community to him leaving.
I attempted to answer David Evans' questions. I assume he will read all the comments and make a judgement based on his specific scenario, which we don't know all the details of. I was just providing a different perspective from those already given as the one true answer.
DeleteMy ecclesia accepted people marrying outside the faith even when the unbelieving partner rarely/never attended, and I assume it is not the only one like that. But even with liberal parents in a liberal ecclesia it will make things harder and I imagine put a strain on the relationship. I would not recommend it.
As to prophecy and the inspiration of the Bible, I was listing some of the questions I have that get to the root of the problem. I share your dislike of Christadelphian prophecy experts who "with Bible in hand" make predictions that usually turn out false. I don't understand how they remain confident that their next prediction will be a success when their previous ones failed. But then, I was never convinced by their prophetic brilliance when I was a believer.
DeleteI am still a member but not for much longer, i spent 4 years going because my relation is a Christadelphian and have been for 60 odd year so it must be right that was until i started reading the Bible for myself, then i began to find over 20 things they were saying which did not line up with what i was reading, most does not matter but some do, in fact so much so that Jesus will reject them for salvation on his return. and yes I have found that if you do not attend their church anymore they do not want to know you, it is as if they are the chosen ones and no other Christian will get a look in on Jesus return, So they cant even keep one commandment like love your neighbour because they sure are hostile towards me since i left i can tell when i speak to them on phone. Since i left 2 years ago not once have they phoned me, but i will continue to keep in contact because that is the right thing to do.
ReplyDeleteI am a Cd but have not attended for 2 years now, i went to cyc when i was about 14 years old, i decided to return to the church when i was 62 and spent about 4 years going, because my cousin attended, and she been going for 60 odd years so i did believe at that time she knew what she was talking about, how wrong i was i t took me 4 years of reading the Bible to find out how wrong they were, I found over 29 things that did not line up with what i was reading some did not affect salvation but many did, but they truly believe that they are the chosen few. and yes they do get nasty if you leave. in fact they dont speak to me now and when i do phone they always make a excuse to cut me short.
ReplyDeleteLes, you escaped from the CD's for 52 years and then somehow got drawn back in by a CD cousin who had been deluded for 60 years. Then you questioned them.
DeleteCD's want members for 3 reasons:
(1) To make them feel good.
(2) To promote their beliefs.
(3) Money
If you fail them in any of the above, you will annoy them, and they will have no further interest in you.
The daftest thing you can do is to is to even suggest that they could be wrong on any matter. That is simply not possible for them to contemplate. They are "the saints" and are not there to be questioned.
They don't answer you because they want nothing to do with you. Consider yourself lucky, and resume your escape, join 7 billion others in similar circumstances. Find a better book to read.
If you love this woman, and if she loves you, then do what is necessary to work around the flack and the impediments that her congregation throws at you. If it were me, I'd continue the relationship until across the Rubicon, then drag your feet, impede their nonsense, and sabotage them in every way possible until they have little or no influence in your lives. It has been done before, plenty. I'd guess a very significant percentage of CD marriages are with outsiders, and most simply fall into line and go through the motions of CD membership. Others do a fast fade along the lines of "I stopped being interested." Still others sabotage the CD fantasy world to the extent to which they are capable.
ReplyDeleteIf you want something badly enough, don't let any of the world's nonsense prevent you from obtaining it.
Marley, this article is 3 years old. On publication, I would have made comments that were later removed, at my request when I gave up my involvement here.
DeleteBecoming involved in this way with a Christadelphian is a high risk activity. A risk in which the possible downsides almost certainly outweigh the benefits.
While your romantic notions look attractive, this is sadly reality, and the better move is to spin on one's heels and make for the door, and when outside, stay outside, and avoid all the trouble.
Christadelphians use manipulation, namely, The BITE/ FOG method. FOG means Fear, Obligation/ Guilt. BITE means , control your Behaviour, Information/Thoughts and Emotions. Just google it please. Google Steve Hassan too. Then you will see through their masks of love bombing and constant manipulation. They are mostly toxic narcissists. Its a cult thing. RUN!
ReplyDeleteI may comment further later, or perhaps not, but for those casually visiting this site, it is manipulation from Christadelphians that should be most high on the list of things to look out for and avoid. My experience is that this is the one that they specialise in, and use it on their own children to prime them for the future. If a child does not want to sit through boring nonsense and a so called Sunday "school", then it is the child that is "letting down " the "teacher", by "wasting" the teachers time, who has so diligently prepared the lesson in advance, that is how the FOG gets implanted in the brain of the innocent. If you lift them out of it, then the FOG lifts, and the child develops normally, this, unchecked, of course leads on to BITE.
DeleteMy (lived) experience is that those brought up most tightly by Christadelphians develop into greedy, materialistic and mostly sociopathic individuals with little concern for the needs of others, lacking a moral compass, and being very poorly adjusted to societal norms.
Our friend, contributor, and member, Mancott, has often described here, the Christadelphians as, living in a (reflective) bubble. For those of us fortunate enough to have moved out of that bubble, we look back in despair at the souls lost to this ridiculous religion.
Finally, Peter, if you are reading this, make contact. With the Benn Hall in Rugby having recently "cancelled" Katie Hopkins' show:
https://www.rugby.gov.uk/w/statement-katie-hopkins-batsh*t-bonkers-britain-tour
I think that we finally have good reason to have the Christadelphians cancelled from this venue as well. I shall be emailing the council over the following months, with a view to having them cancelled, under threat of protest, from next year's prophecy day, and trust that you will be doing so too, and thank you for your previous efforts.
It is best not to lie in life. Sometimes it is necessary. If this person is your "one love," lie. Manipulate. Maneuver. It's what CDs are good at. Get in there, make your union, then move away to a place where there are few CDs. Go secular or Anglican or play with Netflix movies every Sunday. "It's too far to drive for fellowship."
DeleteIs this dishonest? Yes. You'll get over it. Before you know it, your loved one will be free, with a little times and distance.
You owe no one anything.
My experience of growing up in a Christadelphian family, and mingling with others similarly raised, was to not find as we all reached manhood and womanhood, baptised, that we become "greedy, materialistic and mostly sociopathic individuals" as Joseph relates his experience as having been so.
DeleteThe adults - mostly males - in the ecclesia who were clearly "well-heeled" were very generous with their wealth. My parents experienced this unselfishness, and so did I from the actions of a brother in another ecclesia to that of my own.
Certainly, as Joseph has reminded me, they all were well enclosed in their bubbles of indoctrination, bubbles with the interior surfaces mirror-coated, as for a time was I.
We could not be otherwise. The Bible, claimed as God`s Word, was inerrant, which is still described as such on many ecclesial websites.
So no questioning of its geographical, historical, archaeological record, or of the fantastic stories of miracles, was allowed, or thought necessary.
Very few of those with whom I grew up with in the ecclesia broke out of their bubble, and many of them have now gone to "sleep awaiting the resurrection".
Those who did break out, one way or another, those I still know, can`t believe how brain-blinded we were by our indoctrination and count ourselves fortunate to be living in a world free of the control of the Christadelphians.
Mancott, your comment reflects your "lived experience", which will inevitably differs from my own.
DeleteI am forced to wonder just how it was that your influential and generous Christadelphian benefactors became so "well heeled" such that handing out wealth was so easy to them. I am from a family who moved across the country to find hard, manual labour in the building industry to stay alive, both from my father's side and also from my mother's Irish Catholic side. Did your Christadelphian benefactors do so too or was it from the exploitation of others, such that the small requirements of the working classes below them, was near irrelevance in their greater schemes? Although a devout Christian, my father was, from an early age, a devout Marxist as well, and I was brought up with the idea that all value did indeed come from human labour, indeed , my brother, sister, daughter and I, still own and live in a row of houses where, 90 years ago, my father and his friend redistributed milk deliveries, to ensure equality amongst the residents. The idea from my former Christadelphian "Brethren" ( the term disgusts me now) was that shuffling paper and robbing working people was the "work of God", whilst idling and living off their backs, continues to be a disgrace.
Joseph, It would seem that your ecclesial experience of some brethren was vastly different to that of mine. My experience was of growing up from childhood to manhood in an ecclesia from 1945 - 1965. The "well-heeled" brethren I knew were involved in businesses which provided items which the public needed, such as DIY/hardware, printing, fruit and vegetables, and one who was into heavy engineering for the marine sector. The brother who was perhaps the most successful in business was the one who was also not only most generous with his wealth, but also with his time, generously spent in providing activities for the young people of the CYC. He also was instrumental in providing work, in his own business and elsewhere, for brethren, and others, who were finding employment difficult to obtain. There always will be in any community those who are the "good guys" and those who are bad apples. You clearly came up against (to the core !) some bad apples and they seemed to have given you very much the pip. Incidentally, the Birmingham Acocks Green Christadelphian Home and Hospital would not be what it has now become (an acorn to a great Oak) without the generous financial support of a brother in the Birmingham Central Ecclesia in the early days of its existence in Acocks Green, as simply a large Victorian house with lots of rooms, known in those days as, "The Nursing Home".
Delete