tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post5653407177543214894..comments2024-03-28T14:03:39.961+00:00Comments on Ex-Christadelphians: Why Dr John Thomas Was WrongUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger134125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-77781049675907818272024-02-02T08:05:07.661+00:002024-02-02T08:05:07.661+00:00Christadelphians here in the UK are changing quite...Christadelphians here in the UK are changing quite fast on the issue of female subjugation, there is an interesting blog with survey results at https://www.pressonjournal.org/can-we-talk-about-change-text . As Joseph has noted the bible schools have made YEC a condition of attendance for a while now, which means there must be a number of them that do hold that view, otherwise they would not make an issue of it. I find it surprising that they don't believe in supernatural evil, but do believe in the deception of Eve by a talking snake. I suspect that one day they will accept that snakes can't and never could naturally synthesis human voice.Bob Braziernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-50090860969011152492024-01-27T18:04:26.182+00:002024-01-27T18:04:26.182+00:00Jon i think you get where im coming from in a roun...Jon i think you get where im coming from in a round about way. Certainly not asking anyone to wallow in the suffering in this war or any war . You can feel sorry as you do without going way off the deep end. I think we should be very thankfull were we live we dont experiece this sort of thing. <br />Joesph, yes ive watched Miss Congeniality many times and know the scene well. My thinking and yours are a bifferent on this topic and thats just the way it is. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-76855950409956076992024-01-27T11:18:45.081+00:002024-01-27T11:18:45.081+00:00Anon, I am in full agreement with both Jon, and Ma...Anon, I am in full agreement with both Jon, and Mancott's thinking here. What I am saying, and I think Jon may be agreeing with, was neatly summed up by Sandra Bullock's character in the film "Miss Congeniality", in the "World Peace" scene. Link below if you have never seen the film.<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1ZOWwW2agQ<br /><br /> It is of course a dated stereotype, however it serves the point. It is all of the contestant's main desire, but we all know that it is a shallow thought to please the crowd, and nothing more, whilst her character's real thoughts and practical suggestion brings a stony silence.<br /><br /> While I do not carry biases over from my Christadelphian life, being brought up in a Christian home is less easy, perhaps impossible, to erase completely, and hence Proverbs 26:17 comes to mind, and sways my thinking. The resource below, and the explanation in the right pane is very close to my thinking.<br /><br />https://www.bibleref.com/Proverbs/26/Proverbs-26-17.html<br /><br />On 13th October 2023, "Bibleinthenews" (a prominent Christadelphian website) linked to a YouTube channel from within the combat area, I have followed it since. Here is their (at time of writing)most recent report.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aYughrn5Rs<br /><br /> Here is another short video, this time from what could probably be described as a "far right" channel. The lady being heckled is a UK opposition (left wing) party politician, she is not part of the government at the moment and thus has limited power to intervene in international matters.<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox0agyCQ7yw<br /><br />Jon's final paragraph emphasises how such influences are almost overwhelming in the modern world, and make sorting out what is what such that it is even possible to form a valid opinion is difficult if not impossible.<br /> Some other context, in the UK we have to pay for a licence to watch live TV, or any material from the state sponsored broadcaster, some years ago, I decided not to, so I am not exposed to the curated content produced by what might loosely be called trusted sources. <br /> Just another reason why I remain neutral and detached.<br /><br /><br /> Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-3010041779471840582024-01-27T03:14:00.266+00:002024-01-27T03:14:00.266+00:00I have objected to personal attacks on other comme...I have objected to personal attacks on other commenters. None of what you cite is a personal attack on you or anyone else here. (nor would I see it as a personal attack on those involved in that war, or any war).<br /><br />I too feel sorry for those suffering in war, but it's a very abstract thing, and it does nothing to help those actually involved in the war. A quick Google says from this current conflict 24,000 dead, 90,000 casualties, and that was a couple of weeks ago, so it's probably higher now. Spending a second feeling sorry for each one of them would literally take all day. Trying to find each individual life story would take even longer (which is why if, say, reading news articles about the suffering that mention individual cases, we have to trust the journalists to try and find representative cases). And none of that would, in my view, do anything to help those people we feel sorry for. What will probably help is better medical aid and an end to the war. But that will probably require political solutions, and it would require a lot more expertise and involvement to even know what those solutions might be, let alone to have the ability to convince those directly involved to work towards them.<br /><br />So yeah, I don't think feeling sorry for people that we will never interact with is a bad thing. But nor do I think it is a good thing. Unless it leads to action, it doesn't affect anyone but ourselves. And if it does lead to action, then it will depend on the actions chosen whether the results are positive, negative or just neutral. But that action will also take time which could be used for other things - maybe better, maybe worse, maybe again just neutral. Each person needs to decide how they will manage that, because in our modern, connected world there are always more causes than anyone has time to even understand, let alone get involved productively with.Jon Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13434834424707954610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-14108070534173957952024-01-26T22:12:51.887+00:002024-01-26T22:12:51.887+00:00Fair enough Jon, but i see his comments differentl...Fair enough Jon, but i see his comments differently. He said he has no thoughts on suffering on both sides. I've never asked anyone to take a side. I for one feel sorry for both sides in the War. Also, he agrees with me that he doesn't give a shit if it's not affecting him. Do you not think those comments are just not a tad combative? or provoking for a bite? which he got. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-11932112999497733272024-01-26T19:55:07.642+00:002024-01-26T19:55:07.642+00:00All absolutely, bang on the money, Jon.
And I don`...All absolutely, bang on the money, Jon.<br />And I don`t see the connection between having a horse in the race and being let off a hook. Would that be the same as putting one`s hand to the plough but then sheathing the sword?Mancottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-74051201784907906542024-01-26T19:08:51.202+00:002024-01-26T19:08:51.202+00:00Anon, across several comments now, you have failed...Anon, across several comments now, you have failed to be specific about exactly which "suffering" it is that you feel that I should be concerned about, or indeed what you think it is that I should do about it, so, before I comment further, please clear that up, and at the same time do let us know what you are doing, practically about this "suffering" that you seem so unclear about. <br /> We all know that Christadelphians sit firmly on the side of Israel in one of those conflicts, we also know that they don't like Russians, because they are identified as being under the rule of "The King of The North" or some such prophetic drivel. Will they be sending round collecting plates for bereaved mothers in Vladivostok who have lost their sons in that conflict? I doubt it, or heading off out there to help them chop firewood now their sons are dead? what thinks you?<br /> Jon has explained perfectly well my position, but yours remains obscure.Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-17747286616638994992024-01-26T17:30:42.079+00:002024-01-26T17:30:42.079+00:00There are some massive jumps in logic going on her...There are some massive jumps in logic going on here. Remember, this started from discussion of Israel and Palestine. Events that are probably more than 1,000 miles from anyone involved in the discussion.<br /><br />Even as I write this, there are probably ten people getting involved in serious road accidents somewhere in the world. In an abstract sense, I have compassion towards these people - they could face a long and difficult recovery, and they may in fact never get back to what they were, and depending on the person and their situation that could have all kinds of consequences. In practice, though, I don't know these people. I don't know anything about them. Not only am I not walking past and ignoring them writhing in agony, but the odds seem good that I'll never in my life meet any of the people who were injured in road accidents in, say, the last half hour.<br /><br />Then when it comes to practical recovery, the expertise question Joseph raised also comes in. Perhaps they will need pain-killers. Perhaps one or more blood transfusions. Perhaps one or more operations. Perhaps physical therapy. Which steps are taken and when could have a big impact on their recovery and quality of life. I want them to have the right support. But I'm not going to be drawing up a recovery plan for them, and even if I did it's probably not going to be that helpful for them.<br /><br />The world is large, and so is its population. We each have only 24 hours each day (84600 seconds), and have to decide how best to use them. The care and kindness and compassion we may show to our own personal circle of friends and family and neighbours and local wildlife does not scale well to the millions or billions of humans and animals who are in need or suffering.<br /><br />To leap from someone's statement about a distant war to suggestions that that person might not help someone in need they actually walk past is a massive leap, and an aggressive one. That is not welcome here. I don't see any equivalence with Joseph's statements.Jon Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13434834424707954610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-47518751607600610902024-01-26T07:11:18.326+00:002024-01-26T07:11:18.326+00:00Well if i saw Joseph( if thats his real name) lyin...Well if i saw Joseph( if thats his real name) lying on the side of the road writhing in agony id have compassion on him and try to help him.Its got nothing to to do with Christadelphians or any religion. I think you just know to help out and show a bit of human kindness. Jon, you say my question is combative but is not being told that i dont have a horse in the race a few times some what the same? You can have a bit of a dig but because you dont have a horse in the race, well it lets you off the hook as such. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-22049049333761996812024-01-25T15:44:07.119+00:002024-01-25T15:44:07.119+00:00Mancott, I did think about the off-topic issue bef...Mancott, I did think about the off-topic issue before approving that comment. My take is that it's off-topic for this post, but not necessarily for the website. Leaving Christadelphia can make people re-assess their views on many different things (for example, if you were brought up thinking the suffering of yourself and others was a part of the will of God and that it could only truly be fixed by the return of Christ, which I'd say was a part of my upbringing, you might want to reconsider that).<br /><br />My concern is more that it doesn't get into personal attacks on Joseph (or anyone else, for that matter). But I'd agree with Joseph that just asking questions without providing any opinions of their own rarely leads to useful discussion, and with Mancott that no-one is obligated to answer such questions. Particularly when asked in a way that reads combative.Jon Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13434834424707954610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-481071870527953702024-01-24T20:07:21.613+00:002024-01-24T20:07:21.613+00:00Firstly, Anon, for goodness sake, give yourself a ...Firstly, Anon, for goodness sake, give yourself a name, or pseudonym. As for caring about suffering, it`s not easy for anyone to give a straight answer. Right at the start, why should Joseph care about suffering. Is it obligatory? People can decide to not care or not feel able to care, or want to care, for several reasons. They may not be able to bring themselves to a feeling within of being able to care, some block within them stops them. It may be that they have been through so much trauma in their life they they have become numb to other`s suffering. It may be that they they can`t enter into people`s suffering because they choose not to get to know about it. There can be a psychological cause within them. It can come from a disturbed childhood -- or a distressing association with someone, or some group -- and so many more reasons. Why should you say, or insist, that someone has to answer such a question, as the one you have asked? <br />If I might point out, Jon, this has become way off topic. Mancottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-91004006348210555862024-01-24T05:19:51.973+00:002024-01-24T05:19:51.973+00:00Forget any religious views. Do you care about your...Forget any religious views. Do you care about your fellow man's suffering and have pity on him? Someone's who's lying in agony after say an accident. ? What about animals that are eaten alive? Any compassion for them? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-82901374676522731912024-01-22T18:26:40.697+00:002024-01-22T18:26:40.697+00:00I remind you, because as an ex-christadelphian, yo...I remind you, because as an ex-christadelphian, you may mistakenly think that I would have retained some biases as a result of that part of my life.<br /> I have no thoughts on the "suffering". In all wars, there are two or more sides, and people on both sides will suffer, some long after the conflict has ended. I have no friends or relatives involved in the middle east conflict(s), and no religion that may possibly to cause me to take sides. Thus for me to claim to be concerned about suffering would be false. The same is true of the Russian/Ukraine conflict. I know nobody involved and am thus unable to empathise with either side, although I am sure that families on both sides are suffering, none of them are related to me, I have no influence over the conflict, and little understanding of what it might be over, so, I lack the knowledge to have an opinion that is valid. <br /> The same will be true in the Pakistan/Iran skirmish, and the bombing of Syria by Turkey- outside of my world so barely relevant to me.<br /> So yes, you could say that I don't care, and don't give a shit, if you wish to put it that way. <br /> But don't leave it at that, let us know your anonymous thoughts and if YOU are concerned by the suffering, better still, let us know if you think that one or other of the sides in the above conflicts are more or less deserving of suffering, preferably from a Christadelphian point of view.Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-75223823512697129452024-01-21T07:20:47.797+00:002024-01-21T07:20:47.797+00:00Joseph, you keep reminding us all that you don'...Joseph, you keep reminding us all that you don't have a horse in the race.Whats your thoughts on the suffering? Do you actually give a shit? or dont care? im curious...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-75560312500602239172024-01-12T21:09:56.190+00:002024-01-12T21:09:56.190+00:00Bob, I wouldn't describe the East Kilbride Chr...Bob, I wouldn't describe the East Kilbride Christadelphians as "dreadful" I would rather use the word "typical".<br /> I am guessing that they have never watched any of the hundreds of live streamed spaceX launches on the internet, and seen the world develop into a sphere before their eyes, a sight which never fails to fill me with awe, regardless of the fact that I no longer believe in a creator God.<br /> I think that they have missed a trick here. Each morning as my breakfast warms on the stove, I put a plate of food out for the birds in my garden. Before I get back into the house they have jumped down from the trees and are lined up like planes on final approach to Heathrow. One does not need to be a creationist to appreciate the creation around oneself. Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-53489623420936256602024-01-12T12:10:20.436+00:002024-01-12T12:10:20.436+00:00My understanding is that YEC is comparatively rece...My understanding is that YEC is comparatively recent in Christadelphia (though it felt like the norm where I was growing up), and that the pioneers were more willing to accept scientific consensus on things like the age of the Earth. Though I gather that was also combined with the idea that there was a previous creation, and that our current version started at Eden on a similar timeframe to YEC, and I don't think that works in with our current scientific consensus.<br /><br />I looked at East Kilbride a few times during the Covid era, and nothing I saw was even close to the Christadelphians I know. I've heard the "circle of the Earth" verse combined with the "hanging on nothing" verse to prove the world is a sphere and the authors of the Bible knew it because it was revealed by God, but never in support of a flat Earth. Ah well.Jon Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13434834424707954610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-84947344405221676332024-01-12T08:35:14.778+00:002024-01-12T08:35:14.778+00:00Jon, indeed the fact that Genesis 1 & 2 is not...Jon, indeed the fact that Genesis 1 & 2 is not history or science has been taught for decades by even the bible based denominations here in the UK, but it seems to still be a red line in CDism. I used to think that any scientific consensus at the time of the pioneers was taken as true by CDs and any that came later False, but now I see that some CDs are promoting a flat earth. I guess once they start ignoring the overwhelming evidence of an old earth then its not much of a step to ignore the overwhelming evidence of a spherical earth. On 11 Oct 2023 the dreadful East Kilbride CDs posted a picture of the flat earther's map along with 'God is enthroned above the circle of the earth'. They usually just repost dog whistle memes from fundamentalist US sites, so they may not intentionally be promoting a flat earth but who knows.Bob Braziernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-40227878796484588812024-01-11T20:38:28.733+00:002024-01-11T20:38:28.733+00:00Peter, as Sergeant Wilson might have said to Capta...Peter, as Sergeant Wilson might have said to Captain Mainwearing, if Mainwearing had thrown a brick, "Was that wise, Sir?" All actions have consequences, and hot-headed actions generally have not unexpected rather nasty consequential results. <br />Hopefully the state of your finances will soon return to a less rapidly diminishing and a regret-acknowledging level. <br />As for Rugby Ecclesia, they have harboured over many years within their ranks, to my recollection, those with many hot-headed notions in terms of what they promote, and I think it would be wise to ignore them and let them continue wading about in their own miasma of muddy ideas. <br />Mancottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-2973329908409281922024-01-10T18:18:18.010+00:002024-01-10T18:18:18.010+00:00Yeah, I regret throwing that brick because I'm...Yeah, I regret throwing that brick because I'm still paying off the fine. I admitted guilt—I didn't want to deal with a court case.<br /><br />Regarding the Christadelphian Prophecy Channel by the Rugby Ecclesia, they've made a lot of false prophecies. I personally experienced Paul Billington claiming the second coming would be in 2018. There are numerous false prophecies by Jim Cowie.<br /><br />I'm currently working on a YouTube channel that will expose the Crusadelphians. I've got some videos by John Benson that were once on a website, and I've also gathered clips from Jim Cowie and Jonathan Bowman saying some very extreme just search for the christadelphian court on YouTube1922epignosishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17393650873217033376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-85680105947181951832024-01-10T09:36:18.373+00:002024-01-10T09:36:18.373+00:00Mancott, I was simply referencing the fact that ov...Mancott, I was simply referencing the fact that over the last few years, certain acts of what might have been called, in the past, "criminal damage", have been deemed by the courts not to be so, dependent on the aims and motivations of those carrying out the acts, although the "damage" caused, was clear and obvious (to a man riding the top deck of a Clapham omnibus).<br /> From what he describes, Peter was suffering from a sustained course of menacing, harmful and corrupting actions including stalking, and also, possibly, paranoia as a result of cannabis misuse. I am not excusing the actions, just attempting to contextualise them.<br /> With regard to Rugby Ecclesia's prophecy channel, it has been clear for years that they are cranks, but cranks who claim, unopposed it has to be said, to represent the whole of Christadelphia. They upload many, many hours of material per week, to the point that you would have to be crazy to attempt to watch even a fraction of it.Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-2518226944261629872024-01-06T11:52:02.198+00:002024-01-06T11:52:02.198+00:00Joseph, not sure I understand what you are positin...Joseph, not sure I understand what you are positing in your last paragraph.<br />I do agree that letter responses of mildly complaining content are certainly useless. But, the English language is so rich that it should be easy to put together words of such stinging effect that the recipient is left with great shame for his/her actions burnishing his/her cheek -- especially if the individual`s actions and your stinging words (stinging, not libellous) can be given a wider broadcast than simply to the individual in question. Mancottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-42985658841905935452024-01-05T09:39:19.416+00:002024-01-05T09:39:19.416+00:00Emails and letters are pointless if you wish to de...Emails and letters are pointless if you wish to deal with/ stop a sustained course of abusive action/ stalking, although a violent response is never really to be condoned, no matter what the provocation.<br /> Speaking personally, if they are continuing to interfere with your life after you leave them, it is better to go to a live meeting, and confront those involved, in front of their peers/congregation, whatever, and lay down some ground rules. letters and emails can vanish very easily, and Christadelphians are past masters at tormenting those they consider "wrong" or inferior.<br /> As per my other comment on this thread, it is far better to simply make your mind up, and have nothing whatsoever to do with them. Continued engagement only leads to continued problems.<br /><br /> Mancott, what punishment you get in the UK for criminal damage now depends more on one's political motivation than the physical outcome of such actions.Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-60773840134189874682024-01-04T11:33:23.987+00:002024-01-04T11:33:23.987+00:00I must only have skimmed the comment when first ap...I must only have skimmed the comment when first approving it, because I didn't notice the brick reference. I agree with Mancott - it doesn't matter how much you think it's justified, or whether in the court of public opinion it would be found to be justified: It's still a crime, and a crime that can have consequences. It's probably not wise to commit such a crime, and it's probably also not wise putting details of such a crime on the internet...Jon Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13434834424707954610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-7131259594738020152024-01-04T08:42:03.169+00:002024-01-04T08:42:03.169+00:00I still think that a letter/email would have been ...I still think that a letter/email would have been the wiser move. Hot-headed actions can come back like a boomerang and (to mix a metaphor) bite you in the bum. In the UK such a brick-throwing action can lead to a large fine, costs, paying out for the damage, or even prison.Mancottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-37767252873919971032024-01-04T03:07:21.045+00:002024-01-04T03:07:21.045+00:00He should have just sent some anonymous hate mail ...He should have just sent some anonymous hate mail to the source of his anger. That happened twice in my ecclesia. It was unnerving stuff to read, but it halted some of the more objectionable behavior that was occurring. They got the message, and desisted from the behavior.<br /><br />I certainly do, however, relate to the bitterness this poster is expressing. It was like the bullies were procreating in the church's dark basement or something. Why does this happen? I dunno. Maybe it's just some organic part of human behavior. People need to feel empowered somewhere, so they kick ass in some nothing little worship group.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com