tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post1152797630621564667..comments2024-03-28T23:40:02.776+00:00Comments on Ex-Christadelphians: JONATHAN BURKE DISFELLOWSHIPPED OVER EVOLUTION!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-13730267392839675152023-12-18T17:33:31.401+00:002023-12-18T17:33:31.401+00:00I've seen him on YouTube doing a debate with s...I've seen him on YouTube doing a debate with sir Anthony Buzzard about Satan 1922epignosishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17393650873217033376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-23017705244759278092023-12-11T11:40:12.971+00:002023-12-11T11:40:12.971+00:00Mancott and Joseph, I know of at least a verse alo...Mancott and Joseph, I know of at least a verse along those lines:<br />"And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain." (Sura 4:157)<br /><br />My problem with quoting the Quran is that I lack the context. I've seen the verses quoted to present Islam either as a religion of inherent violence or a religion of peace. I can't make any comment about whether either collection of verses represents the "real message" of Islam or how it's practiced today (but I do know I could with ease present more violent verses from the Bible without people going "Clearly Christianity is inherently a religion of violence").<br /><br />For what it's worth, I've heard Christadelphians I trust talking about discussions with Muslim colleagues. There were no conversions either way, but it did sound like they were more accepting of a Jesus who wasn't God.Jon Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13434834424707954610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-40578169114532628002023-12-11T08:19:54.244+00:002023-12-11T08:19:54.244+00:00Joseph, confirmation is very old, probably a thous...Joseph, confirmation is very old, probably a thousand years older than the CofE. As the early church grew baptism got split into two parts - the water bit that anyone can do, and the spirit bit that only a Bishop can do, by the laying on of hands. I rather like the idea of of apostolic succession and did decide to get myself confirmed, for me it had nothing to do with membership, I already had lay leadership positions in the church. We say our theology in the CofE, and one of the things we say is the creed - We believe in the one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and 'there is one baptism..' If its anything then confirmation completes the baptism and enters you into that one church. My wife was baptised as an infant and confirmed by the Roman Catholic Church. She was ordained by the Church of England. Even if she wanted it the CofE would not officially re-baptise or re-confirm.<br /><br />Anyway, all very interesting or not, long story short, as you said mainstream Christianity does not DF, I think because unlike the CDs they do not try to get unity by imposing uniformity. Bob Braziernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-85928344831681249312023-12-10T21:15:19.567+00:002023-12-10T21:15:19.567+00:00Mancott, I am looking into this, but progress is ...Mancott, I am looking into this, but progress is slow, and, if I am to be honest, I am fearful of asking my Muslim contacts about this for fear of disrupting friendships that have nothing to do with religion, and that I would rather stay that way.<br /> Of the few (two actually) Christadelphian books that I retained after leaving "The Truth" one was "The Bible And Islam", by John Thorpe. I shall endeavor to re-read it at some point . I retained it because it seemed, at the time at least to be rather useful. <br /> Other material that I am looking at is from what is now known as "far right" sources, and thus demands even closer attention before quoting, lest I should be "tagged" as such.Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-13889120853126926232023-12-10T20:59:33.827+00:002023-12-10T20:59:33.827+00:00Bob, thank you for your kind and informative comme...Bob, thank you for your kind and informative comment. I thought about it for a few days ( I now think in a rather glacial timescale), and wondered if perhaps the closest thing to membership of the C of E is (or perhaps was), confirmation? considering the matter of confirmation (to) the C of E, and had a look at my copy of "In his presence", given to me by my Bishop in 1977.<br /> My brother, a C of E minister, now preaches to a Baptist congregation, and my cousin, a Baptist minister, now attends an anglian church, whilst myself, a a former Christadelphian, now orbits in the "Kuiper belt" of Christianity, just faintly under the influence of a distant and dim sun. Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-39387679030918756832023-12-10T12:51:00.172+00:002023-12-10T12:51:00.172+00:00Joseph, they (Cd`s) are referring (when they say &...Joseph, they (Cd`s) are referring (when they say "a proportion of this migration . . . in the Islamic faith") to those coming from Iran, which it seems that they do, then have they not understood that in Islam Jesus is not considered to be either the Son of God or God the Son, but "simply" a revered prophet. They don`t believe (and I need to check this) that Jesus was crucified, they believe that a substitute was crucified in his place. This doesn`t seem to square with them being drawn to the Christadelphians for reasons of similarity in a shared belief.<br /> Mancottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-91659058719569301962023-12-06T08:47:52.393+00:002023-12-06T08:47:52.393+00:00I can talk about the C of E, being married to a C ...I can talk about the C of E, being married to a C of E priest. We are not a membership church, so as laity its impossible to join and its therefore impossible to be kicked out. The nearest thing to membership is being on the electoral role, but everyone in England has the right to be on their parish's electoral role, as far as I know there is no lawful mechanism to remove this right. Priests and Deacons are ordained (that is they are members of an order), they cant be un-ordained, but they can have their licence removed, via a Clergy Discipline Measure. This is used in cases of abuse. <br /><br />Baptists do govern their churches using a membership, but all the Baptist churches I have been involved with are open, being a member or not makes no difference apart from whether you can vote in church business meetings.<br /><br />Unlike most other Christian denominations, The Salvation Army does not observe the sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion. They believe it is possible to experience the inward grace of which the sacraments are outward signs, without the need for the rituals themselves. So I am not sure what you get barred from. But apart from that I know little about them. <br /><br />From what I hear, it seems there is a move among the more progressive CDs not to DF, since they cant avoid the hurt it causes. The logical conclusion is to be open to anyone, since if you don't chuck people out for being delinquent in some way, then there is no need to test for it in the first place. <br /> Bob Braziernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-8167618308200779092023-12-04T20:59:25.056+00:002023-12-04T20:59:25.056+00:00Mancott, I haven't looked at what other denomi...Mancott, I haven't looked at what other denominations are publishing for Iranian asylum seeker lately, but will endeavor to do so as time and inclination permits,<br /> This site, "explains" why Iranians are so particularly drawn to the Christadelphians:<br /><br />https://www.wcfoundation.org/wcf-quarterly-cara-christadelphian-aid-for-refugees-and-asylum-seekers-uk<br /><br /> The key point being:<br />"A proportion of this migration has come to the Christadelphians, in particular, because our teaching of Christ as “the Son of God” rather than “God the Son” accords more instinctively with their cultural heritage in the Islamic faith".<br />Now, as I'm sure you are aware, I am a cynic, and to me this is either BS or "word salad" with little substance at all, to justify what is in effect a begging letter from UK Christadelphians to a US charity.<br /> Choosing a new religion on the basis of teachings from a religion and a culture from which you have "fled", and is at odds with the majority in the country onto the mercy of which you have thrown yourself, seems a very strange course of action to me...<br /> While you are there, have a look at the numbers quoted. That 12,000 Christadelphians in the UK number looks grossly inflated from the numbers the CDs have previously come up with themselves. <br /> I cannot speak for the others, but Anglicans, Baptists and Methodists here do not engage in disfellowshipping, unhappy members will tend to move to another congregation of their own accord, even across those denominational lines, and even Catholicism, that is the case. (my lived experience).Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-66808736660574246362023-12-04T12:49:48.577+00:002023-12-04T12:49:48.577+00:00All very interesting, Joseph, and it raised a ques...All very interesting, Joseph, and it raised a question in my mind. Iranians are joining the C of E, the Church of Scotland, the Baptists, the Salvation Army, and in increasingly large numbers, and these organisations too, supply their tracts and bible verses translated into Farsi. As each of these religious organisations have a different slant on "faith" from each other, and Iranians are drawn to all of them (all those I`ve come across so far), it can`t be that they are drawn to join the Christadelphians because of finding Cd "Truth" to be special. Can it? But that wasn`t the question I had in mind. Which was and is, do any of these other religious organisations engage in disfellowshipping? (I think the US Southern Baptists do.) And a supplementary question, have any Iranians been disfellowshipped from any Cd ecclesias? Mancottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-48654344344876130262023-12-02T16:54:37.589+00:002023-12-02T16:54:37.589+00:00So what's new? In what little sect/cult do th...So what's new? In what little sect/cult do these things NOT generally occur? My former husband was excommunicated from the Arlington, Virginia ecclesia because he married me without his group's knowledge or consent. (I was not a member of your sad, puny religion.) Others in the ecclesia had done the exact same thing, and had never had the emblems withdrawn from them. The bottom line: the members didn't like my husband, and were itching to kick him out. He was too unconventional, and called out foolishness when he saw it. When he pointed out other members who hadn't been excommunicated for the same marital behavior, they then immediately changed the reason for the expulsion to his having been "too long absent from the table of the Lord." What bullshxt. He'd been the sole care provider for two elderly relatives who could not be left unattended even for him to attend services. No one had offered him any assistance (as in offering to bring the emblems to him, or sending someone to sit with the old people), but they didn't hesitate to bum rush him to the door.<br /><br />Mega-hypocrites, they be. Let them baste in their own juices, until they've cooked themselves.Lindsey Saundersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-1034415391729799312023-11-28T21:02:55.260+00:002023-11-28T21:02:55.260+00:00What an excellent comment from Jon :)What an excellent comment from Jon :)Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-83191567008225080552023-11-28T01:35:49.383+00:002023-11-28T01:35:49.383+00:00Anonymous, I do not know Jonathan Burke, though I ...Anonymous, I do not know Jonathan Burke, though I did read his Living on the Edge many years ago. But it would surprise me if he'd called himself "Pastor", just because he seemed to still want to stay within the Christadelphian community, and pastors aren't looked on favourably.<br /><br />As for the rest, pretty much every word seems to translate to "I didn't agree with him".<br />"Contentious" - He didn't toe the party line, and wouldn't keep quiet about it or accept being put in his place.<br /><br />"Subversive" - Not only didn't he toe the party line, but by daring to talk to others about it he was undermining our pure fellowship from within.<br /><br />"False brother" - We have constituted ourselves the arbiters of what makes a True Christadelphian (spoiler: It may just involve toeing the party line), so in spite of Jonathan Burke calling himself a Christadelphian, preaching many Christadelphian doctrines, and interacting with other Christadelphian writings, from the time of our glorious Pioneers to more recently, he just doesn't make the cut.<br /><br />"Pride" - He dared to think that he could study scripture and the natural world and understand them in a different way from what we tiny remnant expressly chosen by God have done. How much more prideful can you get?<br /><br />"Downfall" - In our wisdom, we refuse to associate with Jonathan Burke, and try to pressure others not to associate with him, and we make judgemental comments about him in person and online. How much worse could the punishment be?<br /><br />Am I getting your perspective correctly?<br /><br />The Christadelphia I grew up with emphasised the importance of seeking out truth for yourself. This has, in principle, been a part of the Christadelphian ethos from the days of John Thomas, though it is also true that division and disfellowship has been part of the ethos from early on. For me, and for some other commenters on this site, that spirit led us to reject not just traditional Christadelphian teachings but also the Bible and the existence of God. For Jonathan Burke, it led to questioning some of the Christadelphian teachings that I presume he grew up with, while still holding on to others. I do not see pride in that, just an attempt to reconcile the Bible he believed to be the word of God with the world around him that he believed to be the work of God.Jon Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13434834424707954610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-84550300343188590832023-11-27T19:57:35.959+00:002023-11-27T19:57:35.959+00:00Glad "Pastor" Burke as he liked to call ...Glad "Pastor" Burke as he liked to call himself is gone. He was a contentious subversive false brother whose pride was his downfall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-72943648378485522892023-09-13T08:57:22.763+01:002023-09-13T08:57:22.763+01:00Joseph, only one Anon. The second Anon 11/9 was me...Joseph, only one Anon. The second Anon 11/9 was me. I thought I had posted as Mancott, but, apparently not.Mancottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-76591306756765913202023-09-12T19:56:57.146+01:002023-09-12T19:56:57.146+01:00This is the problem with anons, a few posts and no...This is the problem with anons, a few posts and nobody knows which anon is which, So I am addressing anon 11/9, or 9/11 depending where you are from<br /> I think that the anon of 9/9/23 is making the observable (and observed) point, that some (I emphasise some) people who leave the group, continue to dance to their tune, even long after they left. My guess is that since much of this crap is about control, they are so conditioned to accepting it that they are not mentally capable of letting go completely, or believing fully that they are free of it., which is a particularly worrying state of affairs. Christadelphians will keep voting in AB's for decades, even when a blind man on a galloping horse can see that they have done nothing positive whatsoever for the group, and that they are running the group down. Those that leave sometimes still cannot fully escape the forest of nonsense.<br /> I knew a brother who continued to "speak" ( i.e. preach) , at Bible camps, the claptrap of the Christadelphians, just a few weeks before he abandoned his wife and disabled daughter for his pregnant lover. (who he subsequently dumped when he did the same again). What he did was his business, nobody else's, but his outlook on life, morality, and sense of purpose was entirely shaped by brethren who still hold control over his former Ecclesia, and who have guided, and continue to guide, others along the same path.<br /> Christadelphians are best observed from a distance, much like any other dangerous creatures.Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-33538613145494267742023-09-11T19:57:17.059+01:002023-09-11T19:57:17.059+01:00Anon, I`m not sure I follow what you are saying h...Anon, I`m not sure I follow what you are saying here, and how you are saying (if you are) that the gay member was "brainwashed". However, any member of a strict sect who decides to leave, whether straight or gay, can/will have a difficult time. It is usually the case, for example with Christadelphians, that making friends "outside" is not encouraged, unless it is for the specific purpose of bringing them into The Truth. So, on leaving, it is usually the case that a member`s social life pretty much ceases, and it is understandable that a member might stay within a social group of believers and hides their true feelings from them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-42761941883837417292023-09-09T15:34:04.899+01:002023-09-09T15:34:04.899+01:00Brainwashing is a terrible thing. In my family, a...Brainwashing is a terrible thing. In my family, a gay member left the sect, but remained in hiding about her sex life -- knowing no one would approve of it. Others, having also defected, continued to take orders from the sect itself and family members remaining in the sect. They might as well just have stayed in it! Around other CDs, they sat silent when hearing things with which they disagreed -- and even followed some of the sect's precepts they'd rejected!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-88406850052552436402023-08-28T09:30:03.725+01:002023-08-28T09:30:03.725+01:00The video really just informed me that nothing eve...The video really just informed me that nothing ever changes with those people, and never will, and yes, with that level of indoctrination, they do become blinkered.<br /> One thing I do agree with him on though, is that believers in TE do, or have invented it as a means to keep a foot in both camps as it were, to rationalise the ridiculous.<br /> One thing for sure is that the matter of TE continues to severely divide the "community", and as Ken Gilmore stated a decade ago, gives younger better educated people a very good reason not to get involved, whilst swelling the ranks of "zombie Christadelphians"- those who no longer believe, but stay silent for family unity reasons only.Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-79954271536267348312023-08-27T12:18:47.653+01:002023-08-27T12:18:47.653+01:00No, Joseph, I didn`t watch the whole of the video,...No, Joseph, I didn`t watch the whole of the video, just enough to decide that I didn`t want to sit through all of it. The problem is his indoctrination. He says, "God wrote the Bible", and referring to the two Creation accounts in Genesis, he insists that the real reason for there being two, is because God tells us different aspects of Creation in the two accounts. Almost every single educated literary researcher of the text knows that the two Creation accounts in Genesis are the work of two different authors, each leaning on the oral and traditional stories of their (different) time to write what they did. And, "writing as they did" -- apart from differing in their order of the story of Creation -- also indicates that the two accounts are written in quite different literary styles, emanating from different geographical areas and from different periods of time. Mancottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-17630902534333166992023-08-27T09:00:07.901+01:002023-08-27T09:00:07.901+01:00Could well be correct that, Mancott. Although if s...Could well be correct that, Mancott. Although if so, then it only serves to emphasise how important being in control is to these people-even when it is they that have put people out of fellowship.<br /> Hope you watched the whole video!Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-45045736238785860842023-08-25T22:11:52.239+01:002023-08-25T22:11:52.239+01:00I have always understood that even one who is Disf...I have always understood that even one who is Disfellowshipped is still termed a brother (or sister), "brother so-and-so, who is currently out of fellowship".Mancottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-44341387507055001362023-08-25T10:34:26.175+01:002023-08-25T10:34:26.175+01:00Jon has said that he doesn't know. Internet se...Jon has said that he doesn't know. Internet searches do not yield much about him (Burke) post 2013-2016.<br /> However...in 2020, Jim Cowie referred to him as "brother Jonathon Burke", multiple times during this talk, (released publicly by Christadelphian authorities during August 2023)<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CwM8InAmhw<br /><br />The references start at around 17:30 for those who don't wish to watch the whole talk. What is not clear is if he is referring to him as a brother at the time of his writing, or at the time of quoting. At no point does he refer to him as "former brother" though. <br /> For his sake though, I sincerely hope that he has not been re-fellowshipped.<br /> Please note though that I do not wish to debate the TE/Creation debate here, I was only watching the video as I have been made aware recently that SOME ecclesias are "holding" evidence of TE thinking/acceptance to be used later on for dis-fellowshipping purposes, when the real reasons for dis-fellowshipping would bring the brethren/ecclesia into disrepute. A fig leaf if you will, to hide their own negligence and lack of Christian thinking and behaviour.<br /> If you have the time, watch the video. I watched it whilst enjoying breakfast and building a 12v power supply, so little of my time wasted!Joseph Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991556264804797340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-8803155039941942722023-08-25T10:30:33.293+01:002023-08-25T10:30:33.293+01:00Mr. Burke is reportedly back in fellowship. As an...Mr. Burke is reportedly back in fellowship. As an aside, I was yesterday watching by coincidence a CD service in Canada. How morose and somber they all looked. How serious and depressed and lifeless. I had an urge to slap them all across their faces. We have such a short time to dance in the sunlight in this life. What a curse, to spend it wallowing in the bullshit of superstition and oppressive religiosity. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-63396295718182251502023-08-21T04:08:51.017+01:002023-08-21T04:08:51.017+01:00I don't know - I haven't heard anything ab...I don't know - I haven't heard anything about him for years. But then, I quit myself that same year, so it's much less likely I'd hear about it now.Jon Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13434834424707954610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-463445167640495548.post-61364230173138721332023-08-20T23:18:49.666+01:002023-08-20T23:18:49.666+01:00Is Mr Burke back in fellowship nowIs Mr Burke back in fellowship now1922epignosishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17393650873217033376noreply@blogger.com