The Foolishness of Preaching

by John Bedson

“For since in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” - 1 Corinthians 1:21.
 
“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” - 1 Corinthians 2:14.
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise” - 1 Corinthians 1.27.
 
I look back on my two decades of preaching foolishness for the Christadelphians with a sense of embarrassment and shame The Christadelphians take pride in the weird things that they preach because the Apostle Paul described it as “the foolishness of preaching.”
That makes it difficult for Anti-Christadelphians like myself to criticize the religion, because if, after a great deal of effort and hard work I manage to convince a Christadelphian that something in their belief system is nonsense, they come back at me with “Of course it is foolish – the Apostle told us that it was foolish in 1 Corinthians 1.21” or “That means that you don’t have the Spirit (whatever that means, even the Christadelphians can’t agree on who has the Holy Spirit and what it means if you do have it) because these things are foolishness to you because they are spiritually discerned – see 1 Corinthians 2:14.”




To tell you the truth, when I was a Christadelphian I used the same ridiculous argument when I was completely out of ammunition defending my faith against an unbeliever. You know the feeling? That sick nauseous feeling that feeling that you get in the pit of your stomach when an atheist has tied you up in knots defeating all of your best arguments for the truth of the Bible and you know that the only thing left in your depleted spiritual arsenal is the “foolishness of preaching” defense.
In total desperation, with the color draining from your face and your knees knocking with fear you trot out 1 Corinthians 1:21 to the atheist. Then as you watch him looking at you with a “These people are even bigger idiots than I imagined” sort of look on his face you throw in “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise” - 1 Corinthians 1.27.”
Immediately you know that you have made a huge mistake. You have not only made yourself look stupid but you have also told him that (in the words of the apostle Paul) that he is “wise.” Nevertheless, you stand there, with a frightened grin on your face, trying to bluff him that you have delivered a knock down punch, while all the while you are thinking to yourself “Get me out of here, GET ME OUT OF HERE!”
All that remains is to hurl a few insults at him, inferring that he is stupid (even though the Apostle has just told him that he is “wise”) and run away as fast as possible.
Yeah, I have “been there and done that.” I have used the wildly contradictory prophecies about the return of the Jews to Israel and the crazy prophetic dreams of Daniel (who lived long after the events that he “prophesied”) evidence to prove the Bible true. I used the “Tyre will not be rebuilt” (even though it HAS been rebuilt next to where it was in the first place) evidence for the truth of the Bible and the “One (Jerusalem temple) stone shall not be left standing upon another” proof of how brilliant Jesus was at predicting things (even though tourists daily return with photos of loads of Jerusalem temple stones standing on each other).
I gave hour long slide illustrated lectures for the Christadelphians on many Sunday evenings showing how the complexity of nature proves the existence of God and the veracity of the Bible. What WAS I thinking? Where WERE my brains? What has the one got to do with the other? The Celts and Pagans used the complexity of nature to prove the existence of their panoply of gods, exactly like me two thousand years later trying to pin it on the God of the Bible! Why oh why was I such a dope to talk such arrant nonsense from Christadelphian platforms? What was wrong with my head?
I was even so stupid that I gave dozens of slide illustrated lectures for the Christadelphians attempting to prove the scientific evidence for NOAH’S FLOOD!!! I would have done better to have tried to present the scientific evidence for the Loch Ness Monster because at least we have a few fake photos of the thing.
But no, I was so deluded by the wretched family religion and misled by cognitive bias that I had to “prove” that God existed by talking about all of the above and also:
· The ATP Synthase protein.
· The bones in a Woodpecker’s head.
· The fact that water freezes at the top and not the bottom.
· The fragmentary scraps of John’s gospel no bigger than ripped postage stamps dating to about 120AD.
· The Dead Sea Scrolls.
· The book of Leviticus instructs people to wash their hands.
· The Law of Moses forbids the eating of animal fat in an effort to reduce bowel cancer and ischemic heart disease.
· The Law of Moses forbids the eating of shellfish to prevent tummy ache.
· Car tires are made from rubber.
· Plants are often good to eat.
· Venus fly traps eat flies.
· Archaeology proves the Bible true.
· Etc. etc.
See: http://www.thebible4life.org/thebible4life_youtube_videos.htm to watch Christadelphians still churning out the same nonsensical “evidence” for the truth of the Bible that I was taught as a kid fifty years ago and that I myself used in Bible lectures and when staffing the British Bible Exhibition on numerous occasions. I even sourced the archaeological replicas from the British museum for that exhibition thirty years ago. I met my first wife on a Bible campaign in Hertford, led by Michael Owen in his youth. I made “The Miracle of Israel” film in the early nineteen eighties and I wrote “The Destiny of Israel” booklet and others for the Christadelphians.
- And it was all “foolishness.”
It was not “the foolishness of preaching” it was foolish preaching. I was a young man caught up and befuddled by a cult that belonged back in the Victorian times when Britain ruled the waves, slaves worked the cotton fields in the US, Einstein was playing in his pram and Darwin was trying to pluck up the courage to publish “On the Origin of Species.”
I was born into a family indoctrinated into a cult that was frozen in time. If they had been Amish or some other mad cult I would have been an enthusiastic young Amish sprouting their version of the “foolishness of preaching”, driving a horse and buggy and disfellowshipping members who used buttons on their pants or picked up a phone. But no, I was born into the cult that is called “Christadelphians” so that became my “tribe” and I championed their brand of lunacy.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible being true, or false. It has nothing to do with whatever brand of Christianity has worked out “The Truth” from the muddled mess of eschatology that is the Bible. It has everything to do with cognitive bias and the tendency of humans to unthinkingly defend beliefs that they adopted for emotional and not rational reasons. Once adopted, the tribal instinct in all of us causes us to defend the tribal religion against all rational evidence that contradicts our beliefs with arguments that are entirely irrational and which the apostle Paul calls “the foolishness of preaching.”
“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” - 1 Corinthians 2:14.
In other words, people who have not been infected with the cult virus of Christadelphianism, or who have managed to escape and clean the Christadelphian bugs out of their minds think that the religion is foolish. But those who remain trapped in the mind numbing delusion of Christadelphianism “spiritually discern” that this “foolishness” makes sense in their heads and look forward to ruling the World for a thousand years and watching innocent animals slaughtered in Ezekiel’s temple. It is cuckoo crazy; but when you think that you have got “the Spirit” anything is possible in your head and the fact that you believe in “foolishness” becomes proof that what you believe must be true because 1 Corinthians 1:21 tells you that you are “saved” by believing in “foolishness.”
Let’s go back to those guys who prepared the videos at: http://www.thebible4life.org/thebible4life_youtube_videos.htm
Philip Mallinder, Martyn Lawrence, John Botten, John Hellewell, Mathew Biggs and Leem Ritmayer. They are really smart guys; some of the brightest brains in Christadelphianism. They have enough letters after their names that strung together in a line they must stretch to the moon and back. In their academic fields and employment they must be brilliant people conducting some wonderful work. But while I ponder things like the effect of quantum variability on the nature of free will and further developing the efficient market hypothesis of common stocks, they are intent on telling me in their videos that Tyre rebuilt in a slightly different place to the original location, proves the reliability of the Bible and that the long ago debunked ATP Synthase protein proof of Intelligent Design should make me embrace a book that commences with a story about a talking snake!
Do they not understand that I watch that stuff aghast and open mouthed, lost for words and incredulous that anyone should be so distantly out of touch with reality that they dare, that they DARE present such shallow trivial “evidence” to demonstrate the existence of a supernatural creator of the entire known Universe?
What is going on here? What has gone so terribly wrong in the brains and minds of those brilliant and admirable men that when they walk out of their laboratories or climb out of their archaeological trench and sit in front of a Christadelphian operated video camera, that they have to use pictures of woodpecker bones and other trivia to demonstrate the existence of the God who created this entire Universe with its untold trillions of stars, black holes and planets, together with all of the complex laws of physics?
Martyn Lawrence: Why is your God hiding behind your dusty manuscripts and damaged postage stamp sized gospel fragments? Has it never entered your brilliant mind that a message delivered by a single angel to the General Assembly of the United Nations in New York, televised on satellite TV to several billion people, might be a more appropriate method of communication? Do you REALLY think that a few thousand, mostly parochial, trapped in a time warp of an out dated religion Christadelphians are God’s chosen method of witnessing to the billions of human beings on this planet?
Is your God out of his mind to engage in such a pointless, doomed to certain failure and futile enterprise? - Adam and Eve sent to be outwitted by the serpent; prophets to be stoned, Israel to be persecuted, Christ to be killed, apostles to be martyred and Christadelphians to make complete asses of themselves with their “Ecclesias” and “splits” and “disfellowshipping” innocent girls for marrying out of the faith etc?
Your God is the fantasy invention of cunning, conniving, deceiving humans like the priests who sacrificed humans in ancient Chaldea, burned babies to Molech in Philistia, taught the megalomaniac Pharaohs to build pyramids and threw human victims down the steps of Central American ziggurats. Your God who ordered the genocide of the Midianites and took their virgins to satisfy the sexual lust of his chosen people is just another version of human originated legendary Gods formed in the image of man at his most corrupt and immoral.
But you brilliant guys can’t see it. Along with John Carter, Alfred Norris, Cyril Tennant and a host of other great Christadelphian minds both alive and dead, you are and were trapped by a deadly delusional cognitive bias that leads to perceptual distortion, inaccurate judgment, illogical interpretation and wholesale irrationality of belief in the supernatural.
In your professional employment you shine and your peers doubtless appreciate and admire your achievements. But when you open your Bibles your minds become unrestrained by the rational standard of comparison with what is normatively expected as making sense and you offer me a dead woodpecker’s skull as evidence of your God and a cave full of manuscripts as the basis of your eternal salvation and expectation to rule the World with Christ for a thousand years.
I am NOT trying to insult you terrific guys. Three decades ago I was precisely like you. My mind worked in exactly the same manner that your minds are working now. Like you I felt no pain or shame that my thinking was so out of touch with reality. But little by little, rationality, reason and reality impinged on my thinking. Like the small cloud the size of a hand reported from Mount Carmel to Elijah, reason grew to become a storm that swept away the horrors of Christadelphian delusion.
And when that storm subsided I was left with the delight that my mind was no longer trapped in a cult. I knew that the “foolishness” of apostolic teaching really was foolishness and “spiritually discerned” was actually dysfunctional cult thinking on a foundation of distorted cognitive bias.
It is a wonderful feeling that you guys may never know. The promise of eternal life with Christ is absolutely nothing compared to the satisfaction to be gained when you take full control of your own mind and you remove the Christadelphian virus from your thinking.
Unfortunately, all the evidence and arguments from me will not move you one millimeter away from your current beliefs. Your religious thinking is not rational, because you did not get to where you are by a process of reason. Like me and like most Christadelphians it was emotion that put you where you now find yourselves. But like most, if not all personality failures, we have a blind spot to our weaknesses. We just can’t see it no matter how hard we might try. So we become trapped in an awful illusion that our religious beliefs are as sensible as the way that we conduct our daily employment or the way in which we provide for and shelter our families. But that is NOT true. The latter is sensible and rational; the former is distorted and dysfunctional.
Emotion got you guys to where you are in your religious beliefs and it will take emotion, not reason, to get you back to a reality where reason can take over. Reason is just not powerful enough to pull you out. Divorce, the death of a child, extreme trauma, abhorrent Christadelphian behavior or some other shock might knock the scales from your eyes and allow reason into that part of your mind that is currently controlled by Christadelphian eschatology. If that were to happen, the brilliance of your minds will soon open the windows of that darkened room and the flood of reasoned light will bring to you the delight and satisfaction that I now enjoy.
But that is not going to happen for the great majority of you lovely people who I still consider to be my very dear brethren and sisters. You are not going to get the break that you need and you will go to your graves trapped in a cult. I grieve for you my friends. I am so very sorry for you. I wish that I could help, but much as I try, it is mostly beyond my abilities to break the spell that Dr John Thomas has cast upon your minds by his poisoned prescription.
But there are a tiny number of bright brains in the Christadelphian movement who one way or another will stumble out of the dark labyrinth of their religion and like me they will turn back to those poor souls still trapped in the maze and they will cry out: “The foolishness of preaching IS foolishness – follow me to freedom!”
And there are a larger number of Christadelphians who may not possess “bright brains” but instead they have something even more desirable. They have common sense and that is to be treasured in this life beyond all else. Those people will not stumble out of the labyrinth of Christadelphianism. When their time comes they will run out leaping for joy and they won’t even bother to look back, because their future is before them. I have seen it happen many times over and it is a joy to watch.
I did not run out of the Christadelphian labyrinth. I stumbled out over a period of two decades. But at least I got out and in that I rejoice.
Now I reach back to my beloved brethren and sisters and offer my hand to desperately try to guide some of you out. Many years ago and for two decades when I was a Christadelphian I helped to push some of you out of the light and into that dark labyrinth of dysfunctional thinking. Some of you were baptized because of the foolishness of my preaching and I curse myself that I did that to you. Some of you are now dead and I attended some of your funerals. I am so sorry.
And to the Christadelphians who will never leave the labyrinth I say: “In the name of humanity stop what you are doing and free those people. The human race cannot advance if bedeviled by superstition.”
And so humanity progresses; three steps forwards and two back. But slowly we advance and leave irrationality, superstition and even the foolishness of Christadelphian preaching behind.

John Bedson
 

100 comments:

  1. Honest question: if there is no God, then why does it matter to you what other people believe about God? I mean, you believe there is no God, so why are you not devoting more of your time and energy to living it up in this life instead of constantly bashing people who disagree with your world view?

    If there is no God, and human reason has it all figured out, then what is the point here? If there is no God, then none of this should even matter. But here you are constantly trying to justify yourself by marginalizing people who think and believe differently than you.

    Sounds a lot like other great atheists like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, et al.

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  2. Or, other great atheists like; Lance Armstrong, Kevin Bacon, James Cameron, Rodney Dangerfield, Roger Ebert, Sigmund Freud, Ernest Hemingway, Bruce Lee, John Lennon, Barry Manilow, Jack Nicholson, George Orwell, Andy Rooney, Mark Zuckerberg, Charlie Chaplin, Thomas Edison and many, many more who were not evil dictators - Hitler, by the way, was Catholic.

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  3. Honest question: if there is no God, then why does it matter to you what other people believe about God?

    It wouldn't matter except those beliefs are imposed on others through the law and therefore forced upon others.

    constantly trying to justify yourself by marginalizing people

    It is the unbelievers who are marginalized in our society and culture - not you guys. That may change one day though, and we'll probably have about as much mercy on you as you did on us.

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  4. you believe there is no God, so why are you not devoting more of your time and energy to living it up in this life instead of constantly bashing people who disagree with your world view?

    You believe there is a God, so why are you not devoting more of your time and energy to living it up in this life instead of constantly bashing people who disagree with your world view?

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  5. What proof do you have that Hitler was a Christian/Catholic?

    I'm not the one bashing people. Have you actually read this site?

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  6. Buddy:
    Thanks for your questions.
    It matters to me what other people believe because I care for humanity and I want it to prosper. In my view religion is an error that has caused unending trouble and suffering in the World and I think that a new World order without all forms of religion would do much to promote peace and wellbeing amongst humans. The Christadelphians are a very small part of religiosity, but as I have some specialised knowledge and experience of Christadelphians, I feel a responsibility to promote its dissolution.
    With regard to me “living it up” as you suggest; my family and I live comfortably here in Australia; we have all that we need from life; we are not greedy or unsatisfied in any way.
    As for Hitler, he never renounced his Catholic faith and he refered to it in many of his speeches. The Catholic Church did much to support Hitler and they prospered under his protection. Stalin and Mao were atheists, but they were also Communists and that was their overriding ideology, not atheism.
    So to look at it in a broader perspective, it is not religion or atheism that is the problem; it is fanaticism and extreme ideology that is a concern. People who become fanatical about atheism are no better then fundamentalist religious people. Christadelphians are fundamentalists, but they are a relatively mild sect or cult. As such they are no threat to the world. But we are not claiming that they are terrorists; we are simply pointing out that they are mistaken in their beliefs. It is through this constant interplay of discussion and free speech that humanity evolves its priorities and ideas and civilisation makes progress.
    Please think about this and ask some more questions or explain your own view. We appreciate and enjoy the discussion. Many others are reading these words and they will also benefit from the friendly exchange of ideas.

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  7. In Mein Kampf Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." See: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

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  8. "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" 1 Peter 3:15. Buddy and all Christadelphians - Rather than telling Corky and I to stop questioning "the reason of the hope that is in you", the apostle exhorts you to answer us. That is all that we are asking of you. Please answer our criticisms of your beliefs and demonstrate to us where we may be in error. Is that too much for us to ask for?

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  9. n Mein Kampf Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." See: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

    Right, just as you at some point in your life gave assent to Christianity. Does that make you a Christian today? Obviously you would say no. Hitler was an atheist by the time he came to power, which is readily apparent in his doctrine of the master race, which is the perfect logical conclusion to evolutionary atheistic philosophy.

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  10. Buddy and all Christadelphians - Rather than telling Corky and I to stop questioning "the reason of the hope that is in you", the apostle exhorts you to answer us. That is all that we are asking of you. Please answer our criticisms of your beliefs and demonstrate to us where we may be in error. Is that too much for us to ask for?

    Firs of all, I'm not a Christadelphian. Secondly, I don't care if you believe in Christianity or not. I understand that Christianity requires faith in God and the supernatural. Thirdly, how is that you can invoke Scripture to me when you don't believe Scripture to be true?

    Lastly, I've commented on several things here in defense of my faith. I corrected your error on Daniel and the Dead Sea Scrolls and I have corrected your poor hermeneutics on Galatians.

    This is your site and you are the one making the claims, not me.

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  11. Buddy: Thanks for your thoughts. I have to take the wife to the doctor's right now, but I will respond when I return.

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  12. Buddy:

    You have to accept the evidence. Hitler in Mien Kampf not only affirmed his Christianity (Catholicism) but he even explained his genocide of the Jewish people as being “the work of the Lord” which is how Catholics viewed the Jews. Stalin and Mao also killed people, but they did not say that they were killing people BECAUSE they were atheists. Their rejection of religion was in no way relevant to their murderous instincts which instead related to their political opinions and fanaticism.
    I quote scripture to make you comfortable and to show you that I have an outstanding knowledge of the Bible. I was a lay preacher for twenty years. Do you object to me quoting scripture to you? Surely not.
    I am pleased that you are reading this blog and I appreciate your interesting and helpful contributions. But I am intrigued to know why you are interested in a minute, out of the way, rapidly dying, and eccentric religion like the Christadelphians? This is one of the most boring religions on Earth; what is your interest here?

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  13. Buddy: What was that "poor hermeneutics on Galatians" thingy? Did I miss something? I don't read all the comments on these posts and sometimes I overlook something important. What was that about?

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  14. Corky: Can't you get a better avatar than that stupid dog? Use that nice picture of you that you have on your emails. Let the Christadelphians know that they are up against a couple of good looking young guys!!

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  15. I don't know, John, Brian the dog may look better than I do...

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  16. That's better. You look great. You look like the John Thomas founder of the Ex-Christadelphian movement. Try growing a long white beard to complete the effect.

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  17. I have posted this most interesting and informed reply on behalf of "Asyncritus" who had difficulty in finding our "reply" page. I have advised her by email how to get here and hopefully she will continue this discussion here after I have posted my response. Thanks Asyncritus for taking the time to reply to us...........................................

    Hi Bedson et al

    I have been unfortunate enough to read the incredible outpourings of undiluted venom on your blog. A cobra couldn't do better.

    I'm sorry to say that I read most of it,with the kind of horrified fascination one has while watching a set of vultures devouring a carcase.

    Which is a not too farfetched analogy.

    The Christadelphian community,is dying, according to you. But you're not keeping up with the facts.

    The material you produce, which I do not intend to allow to pass undamaged, is about the most desolate and unhappily melancholy that I have had the misfortune to read in recent years.

    I wonder what happened to you to provoke this kind of response.

    There's usually a cause for such violence against a body and people to whom you were once so passionately and affectionately attached.

    Your Lightstand (or was it Lampstand?) magazine was an exemplary production, which I enjoyed reading, and which was most enlightening. You must have spent a small fortune producing it in those days so long ago when you were wholehearted in your efforts to promulgate the Truth as it is in Jesus.

    What happened to you, John? Did some unsympathetic meeting turf you out because of some minor infringement? Or were you turfed out because of something major?

    If either of those was followed by a refusal to have you back, then I can understand your rage and frustrations.

    What I do not understand, however, is this wild outpouring of irrationality I read on your blog.

    You have systematically attacked almost every major one of the doctrines we hold most dear. You have condemned yourself and others you influence to believing and supporting that inane and idiotic teaching about evolution - that enormous piece of scientific garbage so prevalent in the wilfully blind scientific world.

    Mind you, you have the unqualified support of Fortigurn, Pogson, Tarkus and Gilmore(that well-known Christadelphian barber-shop quartet) in upholding that tripe.

    So you can't say that you're alone in holding up a garbage can. Some Christadelphians do so too with unqualified zeal and folly.

    But even the scientific world is turning away from evolution. Didn't you know? Ever read Lennox or Berlinski? You should, you know. It would at least dilute or diminish the volume of ignorance you display on that subject.

    I was interested to hear your recantation of the woodpecker's need for the spongy bone behind its beak, which absorbs the shock of the bird banging its head against a hard piece of wood. It was plainly placed there by its Creator to absorb the said shock.

    How else did it get there, John?

    Perhaps you should try it - banging your head against a hard tree trunk, I mean. It might knock some sense into that dense bone your skull is now demonstrating.

    I don't mean to be unkind, but it is intolerable that you should be permitted to froth along unchecked and unchallenged.

    I need to get some sleep now.

    I will return, hopefully tomorrow God (remember Him?) willing, to further demonstrate the folly of your statements.

    I hope you manage to find this - but to make sure that you do, I'm sending the address to you by email, so you have no excuse for not knowing that you are being attacked because of your publication of such vile and violent materials.

    Speak to you soon.

    Asyncritus

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  18. Asyncritus

    You write:
    “The material you produce, which I do not intend to allow to pass undamaged, is about the most desolate and unhappily melancholy that I have had the misfortune to read in recent years.”
    I don’t see your point here. Would you consider a doctor who picked up your cancer on an x-ray to be less truthful than an incompetent doctor who told you that you were perfectly healthy?
    Are you saying that you determine the truth of a message by how happy it makes you?
    In that case you should be an evangelical Christian, because they tend to be happier than the Christadelphians.
    Nevertheless I will try to add some additional joy and happiness to my future articles. Maybe it will make them more fun to read?
    So the first point in our debate goes to you. John Bedson takes it on board that he must be more cheerful in the future.
    “What happened to you, John? Did some unsympathetic meeting turf you out because of some minor infringement?”
    I resigned from the Christadelphians for a multitude of different reasons. It does not matter any more what they all were. Basically I gradually came to the conclusion that the entire religion was flat out wrong. It was a process of time over two or three years. It took another two decades to get the whole religion thing completely out of my system. I was like an alcoholic slowly “drying out” until he is sober.

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  19. Coninued...

    “You have condemned yourself and others you influence to believing and supporting that inane and idiotic teaching about evolution - that enormous piece of scientific garbage so prevalent in the wilfully blind scientific world.”
    That statement does not make much sense. If the scientific world were “wilfully blind” we would not be living in a World filled with the wonders of modern scientific and medical discovery. As for evolution, the theory is overwhelmingly accepted in the scientific world with only a tiny minority of descent. This minority is so insignificant that in the scientific world, the debate concluded years ago and is no longer seen in scientific papers or presentations. The “Evolution/Creation” debate only takes place in the public or religious sphere, which, as usual, is taking its time to catch up to what the academics have been telling them for decades. Skilled academically trained Christian debaters like for example William Lane Craig, defend creation by claiming that God originated the Big Bang! Everything else, including all of evolution is accepted as fact.
    Penicillin resistant bacterial infections that are sweeping through our hospitals are an example of “speeded up” evolution that we can see happening before our eyes. The woodpecker skull, bird migration etc are simply the same process of evolution on a longer time scale. The great age of the Earth gives all the time needed to evolve features in nature which give an evolutionary advantage and therefore have the illusory appearance of being “designed.”
    Snowflakes have the illusion of being individually designed into their unique pattern like structures. But angels do not handcraft each individual snowflake. The natural uninterrupted laws of physics are all that are required to produce a beautiful snowflake, or avoid headaches in woodpeckers, or cause a bird to migrate five thousand miles for a winter holiday in the sun.
    Let us suppose that the woodpecker's spongy bone behind its beak was designed by God. Let us suppose that all of the wonders of nature are created by God. What are we to make of the endless enormity of suffering, death and destruction seen in nature? Why would God design that into sinless creatures? Why punish baby lambs to starve in the cold snow or be eaten alive by wolves?
    And why would God design all this stuff only to see 99% of all species throughout history extinct by now? Is that intelligent design or mindless design?
    If disease and death is man’s punishment for sin, why do sinless animals suffer more than we do? Are they suffering for Adams’ sin and Eve’s mistake in listening to the talking snake?
    You say that the scientific world is “wilfully blind.” But the scientific method forms its conclusions from the available evidence. Fundamental Christians, Christadelphians and Muslims form the available evidence to suit the conclusions dictated by their magic book.
    That is why we Ex-Christadelphians deride our brethren and sisters in Christ, even though on another level we still love you all as deeply as before we left the cult. Like the Amish trotting in a horse and buggy and the Mormons baptising for dead people, so Christadelphian sisters wearing dreary hats to the Ecclesia and brethren claiming that science rejects evolution causes us involuntary laughter and merriment.
    We Ex-Christadelphians love every last one of you Christadelphians and we will love you even more when you stop being so perfectly silly and join our rapidly growing community.
    But when the last Christadelphian finally joins our movement, we Ex-Christadelphians will have to admit that the World will not be quite as hilarious as it was before we unconverted all the Christadelphians. It will make more sense, but it won’t be as funny.
    Perhaps we will make a reservation around the Birmingham Suffolk Street Ecclesia and leave some unconverted Christadelphians for ever. Just to prove to them that Christ is NEVER going to return and to keep the Christadelphian joke going for all time.

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  20. si3turYou write:
    “The material you produce, which I do not intend to allow to pass undamaged, is about the most desolate and unhappily melancholy that I have had the misfortune to read in recent years.”

    I don’t see your point here. Would you consider a doctor who picked up your cancer on an x-ray to be less truthful than an incompetent doctor who told you that you were perfectly healthy?

    My point is that it is a desolate, melancholy and unnecessary tragedy that you should a. leave and b. be so destructive about it.

    I would have thought that the decent thing to do would have been to leave quietly and let us suppurate in our own mess.

    You haven’t done this, choosing rather to slag us off, and bring this to the whole internet community who may read your blog.

    Too bad. On your own head be it.


    Nevertheless I will try to add some additional joy and happiness to my future articles. Maybe it will make them more fun to read?
    So the first point in our debate goes to you. John Bedson takes it on board that he must be more cheerful in the future.

    You will never be joyful and cheerful again. You may walk away from the Christadelphians, but you will never be able to walk away from the Christadelphian inside you. Once God has His hand round your throat, He never lets go, no matter how violently you react or struggle.

    You may remember Paul, kicking violently against the goads. He killed a lot of the brethren in his evil state of mind (‘breathing out threatening and murder’ is the description), and there’s a good chance you will too. But not while I’m still standing.


    Basically I gradually came to the conclusion that the entire religion was flat out wrong. It was a process of time over two or three years. It took another two decades to get the whole religion thing completely out of my system. I was like an alcoholic slowly “drying out” until he is sober.

    So now you and friend Corky (don’t panic Corky, ‘friend’ is just a bitter joke) are wandering under the great delusion that there’s no God, and spreading the good news that atheism and blasphemy are real good things. How is that a good thing John? Is your conscience now seared with a hot iron? Does nothing of all the good and decent things you once espoused remain in your heart? Nothing at all?

    ReplyDelete
  21. “ You have condemned yourself and others you influence to believing and supporting that inane and idiotic teaching about evolution - that enormous piece of scientific garbage so prevalent in the wilfully blind scientific world.”

    That statement does not make much sense. If the scientific world were “wilfully blind” we would not be living in a World filled with the wonders of modern scientific and medical discovery. As for evolution, the theory is overwhelmingly accepted in the scientific world with only a tiny minority of descent. This minority is so insignificant that in the scientific world, the debate concluded years ago and is no longer seen in scientific papers or presentations. The “Evolution/Creation” debate only takes place in the public or religious sphere, which, as usual, is taking its time to catch up to what the academics have been telling them for decades. Skilled academically trained Christian debaters like for example William Lane Craig, defend creation by claiming that God originated the Big Bang! Everything else, including all of evolution is accepted as fact.

    As I said, you have no real idea of the strength of the anti-evolution movement, and certainly not of the evidence against the theory.

    You prefer the strident shoutings of Dawkins and his tribe of sycophants, and those who would lose their tenure if they dared open their mouths against the theory.

    Pity that.


    Penicillin resistant bacterial infections that are sweeping through our hospitals are an example of “speeded up” evolution that we can see happening before our eyes. The woodpecker skull, bird migration etc are simply the same process of evolution on a longer time scale. The great age of the Earth gives all the time needed to evolve features in nature which give an evolutionary advantage and therefore have the illusory appearance of being “designed.”

    Lovely broad brush tripe. Have you seen a new genus of bacteria appear? A new family perhaps? No, I didn’t think so. Lenski has by now produced 35,000 generations of E.coli bacteria (= many million years of human ‘evolution’). Any new species? No. Anything new? No. Merely the loss of less important RNA and a few other biochemical irrelevancies.

    But new species? Don’t make me laugh. Cackling loudly does my ribs no good at all.


    Snowflakes have the illusion of being individually designed into their unique pattern like structures. But angels do not handcraft each individual snowflake. The natural uninterrupted laws of physics are all that are required to produce a beautiful snowflake, or avoid headaches in woodpeckers

    Really, John? Do go and inform yourself properly. Here’s Denton:
    ‘Between a living cell and the most highly ordered non-biological system, such as a crystal or a snowflake there lies a chasm as vast and absolute as it is possible to conceive.’


    “… or cause a bird to migrate five thousand miles for a winter holiday in the sun.”

    Yeah. Then leave its offspring there, and fly back to Hawaii. The offspring then follow WITHOUT A GUIDE to Hawaii, 2800 miles away across the Pacific.

    If you want a really good set of information on the subject of instinct, try www.howdoesinstinctevolve.com The site is down at the moment, but that won’t last too long, I hope.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Let us suppose that the woodpecker's spongy bone behind its beak was designed by God.

    Yes, let’s. You’re evading the question. If God didn’t put it there, then how did it get there?

    Does your theory explain all these woodpecker fossils? They all died beating their brains out against the trees! Till one evolved a piece of spongy bone. Hmm.

    Honestly, John. I don’t know who’s more stupid: Dawkins or Darwin.

    Mind you, the only reason Dawkins isn’t activating for Darwin’s picture being put on more English banknotes is that he’s been too busy counting them, of late. Has any of your money gone into his pockets?


    Let us suppose that all of the wonders of nature are created by God.

    So you agree that there ARE wonders of nature. All produced mindlessly? Really?

    You must read something about the genetic code.

    Do you know that the man described as ‘the world’s greatest atheist’ for 50 years and more, Anthony Flew, has recanted, and is now a theist?

    Why? Because he could not believe that such an incredibly complex and brilliant code could have evolved from zilch.

    Hey, John, he’s gone the very opposite way to you and friend Corky. He didn’t have the great start in religious life that you had, nor is he now a Christian, but he has abandoned the vomit and mire in which you have resumed your abode.

    Who has done the better thing?


    What are we to make of the endless enormity of suffering, death and destruction seen in nature? Why would God design that into sinless creatures? Why punish baby lambs to starve in the cold snow or be eaten alive by wolves?

    Um, what do you think would happen to the wolves?

    And why would God design all this stuff only to see 99% of all species throughout history extinct by now? Is that intelligent design or mindless design?

    Where did you get that figure from?

    If disease and death is man’s punishment for sin, why do sinless animals suffer more than we do? Are they suffering for Adams’ sin and Eve’s mistake in listening to the talking snake?
    I can’t easily answer that question.

    You say that the scientific world is “wilfully blind.” But the scientific method forms its conclusions from the available evidence.

    They should. But in fact they do not. Their conclusions are as firmly based on faith and world views as ever ours are. But I don’t suppose you know that. Dawkins is the prize chump spewing forth evolutionary gibberish for his sycophants to swallow and line his pockets. And here are you uncritically swallowing his guff.

    Wake up, man. Open your eyes and behold the world you describe as ‘wonderful’. Evolution is not the answer: Fortigurn, Gilmore and the rest of the shameless evolutionary Christadelphian barbershop quartet notwithstanding.


    That is why we Ex-Christadelphians deride our brethren and sisters in Christ, even though on another level we still love you all as deeply as before we left the cult. Like the Amish trotting in a horse and buggy and the Mormons baptising for dead people, so Christadelphian sisters wearing dreary hats to the Ecclesia and brethren claiming that science rejects evolution causes us involuntary laughter and merriment

    I’m happy to hear that you deride us. I will have no qualms doing so to your unhappy and unfortunate brigade.

    But this is a curious description, don’t you think? “…our brethren and sisters in Christ”. You cannot possibly be our brethren etc if you deny the existence of God, the resurrection, the inspiration of scripture etc. As you do.

    So I deem that a Freudian slip, which reveals the true desires of your heart. I’m no psychologist, you understand, but I think that was a significant statement.


    Perhaps we will make a reservation around the Birmingham Suffolk Street Ecclesia and leave some unconverted Christadelphians for ever. Just to prove to them that Christ is NEVER going to return and to keep the Christadelphian joke going for all time.

    We will see what we will see.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Asyncritus:

    You arguments are shallow, and don;t hold water and you typically use arguments that have been used by CDs over and over again, they are erroneous and unresearched...

    and remember... To the man with the hammer, everything looks like a nail... so pout down the hammer and start using your brain!!

    ReplyDelete
  24. If we had someone here arguing for the Flat Earth Theory, or the Earth Centred Solar Orbit Theory, or the German Master Race Theory, we would not take any of our valuable time to discuss. These debates have taken place in history and are over. The same thing is true of the Evolution/Great Age of the Earth debate. Its over; its history. If this were the Nineteen Fifties or Sixties then yes, we might engage you in this type of vintage discussion. But this is the Twenty First Century and the time for this type of discussion is over.

    ReplyDelete
  25. You arguments are shallow, and don;t hold water and you typically use arguments that have been used by CDs over and over again, they are erroneous and unresearched...

    You will have observed the citations made.

    And the various references to published literature and books.

    I don't see any in yours.

    and remember... Shallow did you say? Hmmm.


    and start using your brain!!

    It's been used to such effect that you've been unable to provide any answer of substance.

    Try again.

    I hope the assembled multitudes of ex-Christadelphians are reading this exchange and at least beginning to wonder if they've done the right thing.

    ReplyDelete
  26. If we had someone here arguing for the Flat Earth Theory, or the Earth Centred Solar Orbit Theory, or the German Master Race Theory, we would not take any of our valuable time to discuss. These debates have taken place in history and are over. The same thing is true of the Evolution/Great Age of the Earth debate.

    Its over; its history....
    and the time for this type of discussion is over.

    John, I'm quoting modern writers. 4 years old at most.

    Flew's book is about 5 years old.

    It's you that's not in touch.

    Hadn't you better do some checking up on my claims?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Asyncritus:
    It’s difficult to discuss with Christadelphians, because just as each Ecclesia is autonomous and makes up their own version of the religion (to a certain extent) likewise each member in an Ecclesia seems to make up their own version of the religion. For example many Christadelphians do believe in Evolution, but you do not.
    I’m interested to know your own thoughts. Do you agree with each of the following?:
    1. God created the Earth, moon, sun, stars, light, the Earth’s atmosphere, The Universe and all living organisms and species, as they exist now, in six days.
    2. God rested on the seventh day.
    3. All of this happened approximately six thousand years ago.
    4. Adam was the first Homo Sapiens and we are all descended from him and his wife.
    5. The entire fossil record, including dinosaurs and trilobites are less than six thousand years old.
    6. The indigenous people of Australia are less than six thousand years old.
    7. The Garden of Eden was a real place, with a real talking snake created by God.
    8. We are condemned to death, the Earth brings forth weeds and women suffer in childbirth, because two people six thousand years ago ate a piece of fruit.
    9. Cain, Seth and possibly Abel all married their sisters and their children married their cousins and/or sisters.
    10. The grandchildren of Noah also married their own sisters or cousins.
    11. There was a real flood that covered the entire Earth, including Mount Everest and the Alps.
    12. The diversity of language began at Babel.
    13. There was no rain before the flood of Noah.
    14. Rivers still flowed before the flood, even though it had not rained for hundreds of years.
    I’d also like to ask these questions:
    A. Do you think that Evolution by Natural Selection has happened in any shape or form whatsoever, no matter how limited?
    B. Has one species ever evolved into another?
    C. Has one species ever adapted or developed to better suit its environment without evolving into another species? (For example the beaks of birds).

    ReplyDelete
  28. Asyncritus:

    If you visit: http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
    you will find that people are still arguing for the Flat earth theory. I'm sure that people will be arguing against the theory of evolution for a few more hundred years. But that does not mean that we have to waste time debating with them any more than we debate with Flat Earth theorists or Neo Nazis followers.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Notice that the primary evidence for the Flat Earth theorists is Biblical. It is exactly the same as the Ant-Evolution theorists. The Bible dictates that Evolution did not happen, so people like Asyncritus reject the theory, regardless of the overwhelming weight of evidence.

    ReplyDelete
  30. May I ask another question of Asyncritus please? If you were able to see overwhelming evidence for the validity of Evolution, evidence that DID convince you that the theory was true because it was so totally convincing, persuasive, compelling and obviously factual; would you then be willing to abandon you current belief that God created living organisms and species? Or would you still ignore that evidence and hold to your belief in scripture? Or would you adapt your belief in the creation account to accommodate Evolution into the Biblical account of creation? Or would you do something else?
    In other words, I am asking if scriptural statements are more believable to you than evidence from your own senses which is obviously true but contradicts the Bible account?

    ReplyDelete
  31. Asyncritus:

    Your response to my comment yesterday is proof of your failure to be able to use your brain effectively...

    You poor woman... I really do feel sorry for you.

    At this point I concur fully with John Bedson (and I also notice that you are selective as to which questions of his you bother to answer)...

    Christadelphia (and indeed christianity as a whole) is slowly dying out... thank god!!

    and before you jump on that, it's not a Freudian slip... it's humour, although I doubt you laugh much)...

    ;¬)

    ReplyDelete
  32. Hey guys

    It'll take time to answer your posts,as there are a few of them.

    Can you please hold off new stuff till I reply to each of them?

    Thx

    ReplyDelete
  33. Asyncritus:

    It's OK for you to take your time replying to our posts because you have eternal life coming to you. But we atheists only get the one life, so we are working to a limited time frame here. Please try to reply before the return of Christ because we won't be able to post messages when we are buring in the Lake of Fire or we are being eaten by "worms that dieth not."

    ReplyDelete
  34. This is debate heaven (or "Kingdom on Earthish" for those who have the the Truth) at the moment. Play the line wisely Corky and Bedson and you will have a living demonstration of how Christadelphian's are nasty twisted and willingly ignorant.

    ReplyDelete
  35. asyncritus makes me so glad I left the christadelphians each and everyday. I guess until these foretold murderous rages appear I will continue to be glad. Wow do I know now that I'm a better person than I once was.

    I think the christadelphians need to reconsider asyncritus before even reconsidering themselves, because your a bad PR stunt or the religion just waiting to happen.

    Kris woodland

    ReplyDelete
  36. Asyncritus writes - *Once God has His hand round your throat, He never lets go, no matter how violently you react or struggle.*

    This an unintended but important reveal. The image is of a powerful male figure subduing a woman by sheer force so he can have his way with her. Thankfully it was this sort of deeply held communal belief in god that drove me from this destructive and harmful religion into atheism. Imagine a god that has the power to create humans with all the creativity/sensitivity/understanding/love/compassion etc then we get the above picture. This is the true nature of the Christadelphian god. A good god that goes out of his way to single mindedly meet out nastiness and violence to individuals so he can have his way. Much worse than being a prick because you don't know any better.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Asyncritus:

    [quote]It's OK for you to take your time replying to our posts because you have eternal life coming to you. But we atheists only get the one life, so we are working to a limited time frame here. Please try to reply before the return of Christ because we won't be able to post messages when we are buring in the Lake of Fire or we are being eaten by "worms that dieth not."[/quote]

    True enough.

    But there's a simple fix.

    Why not use it?

    After all...He is able to save to the uttermost those who come toGodby Him...

    ReplyDelete
  38. [i]asyncritus makes me so glad I left the christadelphians each and everyday. I guess until these foretold murderous rages appear I will continue to be glad. Wow do I know now that I'm a better person than I once was.

    I think the christadelphians need to reconsider asyncritus before even reconsidering themselves, because your a bad PR stunt or the religion just waiting to happen.[/i]

    Wow. Didn't think I was that evil, kris.

    But everyone (including you) is entitled to their fantasies.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Asyncritus:
    I do not approve of the morality of the God of the Bible. It is the morality of perverted humans, who are the people who invented him. I would rather face death than serve such a monster God.

    ReplyDelete
  40. This an unintended but important reveal. The image is of a powerful male figure subduing a woman by sheer force so he can have his way with her.

    You some kind of amateur psychologist? (Amateur being the operative word here).

    Thankfully it was this sort of deeply held communal belief in god that drove me from this destructive and harmful religion into atheism.

    You don't know what you're saying, anonymous.

    Did you know that the atheist Stalin killed about 20,000,000 people during his regime?

    And Mao Zedong 40,000,000?

    That's just a couple of the godless atheists.

    As you may or may not know, we are conscientious objectors.

    You happy to be with those two up there?

    Imagine a god that has the power to create humans with all the creativity/sensitivity/understanding/love/compassion etc then we get the above picture.

    The one I painted, or the one you did?

    This is the true nature of the Christadelphian god. A good god that goes out of his way to single mindedly meet out nastiness and violence to individuals so he can have his way.

    Tut tut. The amateur psychologist strikes again. Get some qualifications, will you?

    ReplyDelete
  41. Asyncritus:
    I do not approve of the morality of the God of the Bible. It is the morality of perverted humans, who are the people who invented him. I would rather face death than serve such a monster God.


    You probably will, at this rate.

    But what about the monumental ass question I posed? Still waiting.

    ReplyDelete
  42. BTW John

    Do you want me to get back to your evolution questions, or leave them alone till we sort out these matters before us?

    ReplyDelete
  43. John

    Just as a matter of interest,

    what do you think of the morality of the 10 commandments?

    And of the sermon on the mount?

    You got something better than those now?

    ReplyDelete
  44. Asyncritus:

    What do I think about the Sermon on the Mount?
    There is good in the sermon, but there is also some poor advice. “Love your enemies” is ridiculous. Where would we be now if we had loved Hitler, and the Japanese after they attacked Pearl Harbour? What would the World look like if we had not resisted Stalin and Communism? “Take no thought for the morrow” is a recipe for bankruptcy and unemployment. How can anyone care for their families adequately following that advice?
    But that is hardly surprising because Jesus was certainly NOT a family man. For example he said “For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law” and “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
    Like all charismatic teachers there was a dark side to Christ. He was rude to his mother when she found him in the temple at age twelve. When the Canaanite woman showed faith in Christ he first ignored her and then hurled a racist insult at her “It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.” Jesus overturned the tables of the money changers in a blinding temper. He encouraged Judas to commit the greatest sin in the Bible (“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me……That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him. So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot…..And after the morsel ……… Jesus unto him, What you do, do quickly.”)
    Jesus was not free from sin at all, his character failings are there for us all to see in the Gospels.
    To summarise what I think about the Sermon on the Mount let me quote from it again: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” That is exactly what Christ did; he brought blood, death and destruction to the World. Christianity has left a trail of blood and flames over the past two thousand years. It has been a curse to the World. The post Christian era will hopefully be better.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Asyncritus:

    What do I think about The Ten Commandments?
    The first three show God to be insecure, jealous, proud, paranoid and controlling. – Nothing to do with good morality
    The fourth gave the Jews a day off once a week. – Nothing to do with good morality.
    The fifth orders children to obey their parents - on pain of death according to Deuteronomy! “And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard………And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.” - Typical barbaric and primitive Bronze Age Biblical morality.
    The sixth (don’t murder) is good, but was common law in all nations at that time.
    The seventh (don’t commit adultery) is again a perverted morality because the punishment is stoning to death.
    The eighth (don’t steal) is good, but was common law in all nations at that time.
    The ninth (don’t bear false witness) is good, but hardly one of the ten most important morality points that could have been made.
    The tenth is odd (don’t covet). What is wrong with wanting to keep up with the living standards of people around you? The last commandment is unusual in that it is condemning thought crime. So if you “think” about robbing a bank you get five years in jail? Ridiculous. – Nothing to do with morality
    So what do I think about The Ten Commandments? I think that I could have made a much better job of writing them. I would have kept two of them, rejected the rest and made eight new ones in their place.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Asyncritus:

    What was that "monumental ass question"? I can't find it.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Note how God encouraged Israel to break his ten commandments, just like he encouraged Adam and Eve to sin by creating an intelligent, talking snake to trap them. God encouraged his people to COVET the land of the Canaanites, commanded them to STEAL the land from them by KILLING the Canaanites and then commanded them to commit ADULTERY by taking the Midianites’ virgins to be sex slaves.
    “Thou shalt not kill” may be one of God’s commandments but killing is the trademark of God. That is what he does. That is what God is all about. He killed people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath day, he killed a woman for being curious about the fate of Sodom, he killed children for mocking Elijah, he killed women who were raped in the city, he killed a guy for trying to prevent the Ark of the Covenant falling off a cart and he killed two Christians for refusing to give sufficient money to his Church. God even killed the entire human population of the World plus all living species except those on Noah’s Ark. He has promised to destroy the world again, but next time by fire (2 Peter 3:7). God is a murdering bastard without equal in the history of the World.
    What a joke! Who does he think he is – Stalin – Pol Pot – Hitler?
    But as I have said many times before, this “God” is merely the fantasy invention of the early Semites; he does not actually exist. The morality of God is the evil morality of the people who originally created the fiction. It is Bronze Age morality. Civilisation has come a very long way since then.
    Christadelphians are cool with this Mafia Godfather they serve. They have been promised by Robert Roberts and John Thomas (for example “Christendom Astray” chapter eleven etc) that they will be able to kill millions of people in the Kingdom and steal their possessions. Most likely they will be able to rape their attractive virgins at the same time - as God instructed Israel to violate the Midianites women and children.
    We Ex-Christadelphians have an infinitely higher moral code of Atheistic Humanism. Christadelphians call us “fallen” for seeking to advance humanity and civilisation in this way. Christadelphians threaten us with death for daring to live lives that are ethically and morally far superior to the gangster God that they serve.
    I wrote “I would rather face death than serve such a monster God.” Asyncritus replied “You probably will, at this rate.” A couple of years ago Sister Rachel Jones from Nottingham wrote to me “Remember – vengeance is mine saith The Lord; I will repay.” My Christadelphian Grandfather used to say “When Christ returns the blood will be up to the bridles of the horses and all the tall buildings in New York will come crashing down.” See what I mean? These Christadelphians have murder in their evil hearts. Read: http://www.brethrenofchrist.net/doctrinal-matters/174-christendom-astray-chapter-11-christ-the-future-king-of-the-world to see the mayhem and murder that these people propose to unleash on our planet if Christ gives them the opportunity. Yes Christadelphians are “Godlike”, they do manifest the character of God in their lives - and it stinks to high heaven.
    Turn your backs on this wickedness and join the Ex-Christadelphians. Let us do good in the World and not perpetuate the evil contained in the Bible and promulgated in Christadelphian “Foundation Works”. Enough of this Bronze and Iron Age malevolent morality for we have a far higher calling. Let us do good for good’s sake. And when the grave takes us, let us sleep content for all eternity because we did our best to help improve the condition of humanity.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I'll get to your 10 commandments and the SoM in a moment.

    The question re the monumental ass is this:

    You said you were 'such an ass' to promulgate our teachings etc. once. (I can find the quote if you'd like, but you probably know what I mean).

    My question is, how do we know you're not being just as monumental an ass now, teaching these things you now espouse?

    ReplyDelete
  49. The first three show God to be insecure, jealous, proud, paranoid and controlling. – Nothing to do with good morality,

    We agree, then that there is a God who permits Himself to be described in words like yours, without zapping you in the backside.

    That sounds pretty tolerant to me.

    Insecure is not a description I recognise in this God. Jealous, He declares Himself to be such :'I the Lord they God am a jealous God'.

    Now why would He be such?

    Simple, I would have thought. If He IS the only God there is, as He claims to be, then it is perfectly reasonable to expect Him to tolerate any other gods.

    The fourth gave the Jews a day off once a week. – Nothing to do with good morality.

    No? Would you rather they slaved 7 days a week for their masters without any rest? Isn't that a recipe for physical disaster?

    Here's a modern comment:

    "The benefits of the Sabbath, a Day of Rest, are many," he said. "One is just rest. As the Bible says, `Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work: but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord, your God: in it thou shalt not do any work.' It refreshes you physically and mentally. It gives you time."

    The fifth orders children to obey their parents - on pain of death according to Deuteronomy! “And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard………And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.” - Typical barbaric and primitive Bronze Age Biblical morality.

    Typical stupid comment from you. We're seeing the results of the disrespect of parents in every stratum of society. I was a teacher once, and I can testify to the staggering difference between those kids who were taught respect for their parents (and by extension teachers who are in loco parentis to use the technical term), and those who weren't. Guess who were better behaved, and learnt more? Yeah, you got it in one.

    The sixth (don’t murder) is good, but was common law in all nations at that time.

    This is also nonsense. The Greeks didn't have laws like this.

    Aztecs: Some crimes considered serious would include stealing from another's crops, public drunkenness (except at a festival, or if you're over 70 years old), and murder.

    Assyrian. Punishments under the Assyrian Empire were very severe. They included death, mutilation (as by cutting off ears, nose, lips, or by castration), impalement upon a stake, deprivation of burial, strokes of the rod,

    So this was a moral commandment.

    The seventh (don’t commit adultery) is again a perverted morality because the punishment is stoning to death.

    It's a damned good law. Just think of the number of broken families there are today, becqause of adultery.

    The eighth (don’t steal) is good, but was common law in all nations at that time.

    But good morally nonetheless, your grudging acceptance, notwithstanding.

    The ninth (don’t bear false witness) is good, but hardly one of the ten most important morality points that could have been made.

    But it is. It is really perjury that's being prohibited, and is a VERY serious matter in any judicial procedure. It is justifiably there.

    The tenth is odd (don’t covet). What is wrong with wanting to keep up with the living standards of people around you? The last commandment is unusual in that it is condemning thought crime. So if you “think” about robbing a bank you get five years in jail? Ridiculous. – Nothing to do with morality

    If you're sufficiently daft as to be unable to see that any amount of crime begins in the heart, then your judgment is severely inept.

    So what do I think about The Ten Commandments? I think that I could have made a much better job of writing them. I would have kept two of them, rejected the rest and made eight new ones in their place.

    Your presumption knows no bounds.

    Pity that, but there it is.

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  50. Correction:

    then it is perfectly UNreasonable to expect Him to tolerate any other gods.

    ReplyDelete
  51. As I said, God is a pretty tolerant Person for not zapping you in the backside for some of your comments. Were you in court, talking about the judge in a case, you'd be had for contempt of court.

    But maybe you will, one day.

    You doubtless recall the statement that 'God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.' Beware, I tell you.

    Note how God encouraged Israel to break his ten commandments,

    Now are you being just stupid, or simply perverse? In your company, do you make rules, and then encourage people to break them?

    just like he encouraged Adam and Eve to sin by creating an intelligent, talking snake to trap them.

    As I thought, you really haven't a clue about what went on there, do you?

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  52. God encouraged his people to COVET the land of the Canaanites, commanded them to STEAL the land from them by KILLING the Canaanites and then commanded them to commit ADULTERY by taking the Midianites’ virgins to be sex slaves.

    You may recall that His people didn't really want to go there.

    But the land is God's, to do with as He pleased, and to give it to whoever He pleased too. So what's your point?

    If you really want to know WHY He wanted to get rid of them, you might like to read Leviticus 18. Wouldn't you want to get rid of such scum?

    “Thou shalt not kill” may be one of God’s commandments but killing is the trademark of God. That is what he does. That is what God is all about. He killed people [no, that's ONE person. Read about it to find out why. Num 15] for picking up sticks on the Sabbath day,

    he killed a woman for being curious about the fate of Sodom,

    That's about as foolish as you can get. That wasn't the reason Go read Gen 18 to find out why she died.

    he killed children for mocking Elijah,

    Try to read a bit more carefully, will you?

    he killed women who were raped in the city,
    ?????

    he killed a guy for trying to prevent the Ark of the Covenant falling off a cart

    You don't have a clue why that happened, do you?

    and he killed two Christians for refusing to give sufficient money to his Church.

    You don't have a clue, do you?

    God even killed the entire human population of the World plus all living species except those on Noah’s Ark.

    Why do you suppose that was ?

    He has promised to destroy the world again, but next time by fire (2 Peter 3:7). God is a murdering bastard without equal in the history of the World.

    For this alone you should be zapped painfully in the backside. You're lucky I'm not the judge, jury and prosecutor.

    What a joke! Who does he think he is – Stalin – Pol Pot – Hitler?
    But as I have said many times before, this “God” is merely the fantasy invention of the early Semites; he does not actually exist.


    If He doesn't exist, then aren't you a monumental ass for railing at something that doesn't exist?

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  53. The morality of God is the evil morality of the people who originally created the fiction. It is Bronze Age morality. Civilisation has come a very long way since then.

    This only proves how ignorant you are of the real facts.

    Let me enlighten you. Your atheist friends did a colossal amount of murdering.

    Stalin: 20 000 000
    Chinese Civil war: 2 500 000 million

    People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime: 40 000 000

    Cambodia, Khmer Rouge 1,650,000
    and so on.

    Atheism is SO wonderful and pure as the driven snow, isn't it? Where do you stand now?

    Christadelphians are cool with this Mafia Godfather they serve. They have been promised by Robert Roberts and John Thomas (for example “Christendom Astray” chapter eleven etc) that they will be able to kill millions of people in the Kingdom and steal their possessions.

    I really don't quite know what you're talking about. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me?

    Most likely they will be able to rape their attractive virgins at the same time - as God instructed Israel to violate the Midianites women and children.

    Sound like another piece of your hyperactive imagination working at piecework rates.

    We Ex-Christadelphians have an infinitely higher moral code of Atheistic Humanism.

    See the above figures and talk to me when you've made the final count of murders. Oh, I should have mentioned the 6,000,000 Jews too shouldn't I?
    Christadelphians call us “fallen” for seeking to advance humanity and civilisation in this way.

    You mean advance over the corpses of the murdered, do you?

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  54. Christadelphians threaten us with death

    We have no power to make such threats. God, however, does, and He has, and is speaking very clearly to you over and above your blasphemous tirades.

    When will you repent of your evil ways? You curse God. You lead the weakminded astray. You make foul claims - and you expect me to say nothing, besides pat-pat John, there's a good lad? Is that what you want?

    Your sycophants may do so, are doing so - but it is my bounden duty to warn you of the possible consequences of your blasphemous words and deeds.

    They are not good.

    for daring to live lives that are ethically and morally far superior to the gangster God that they serve.

    Really John?

    You live, and make money in a society that is as beneficial as it is because it tries, however feebly, to embody the principle of the 10 commandments.

    It legislates against people robbing you (thou shalt not steal). Against people murdering you (thou shalt not kill). Against people binding themselves to perform certain deeds, and then reneging on their word (thou shalt not bear false witness). Against your children kicking you in the teeth (honour thy father and thy mother). Against people running off with your wife, and vice versa (thou shalt not commit adultery). Against having to work for 7 days every week, and have some rest (remember the sabbath day)

    And so it goes on. You benefit daily from the 10 commandments, and wickedly and ungratefully savage the God who gave those rules.

    I wrote “I would rather face death than serve such a monster God.” Asyncritus replied “You probably will, at this rate.”

    I was merely agreeing with you, rather than pat you on the head saying, I sincerely hope no.

    I frankly don't care. You have made your bed, and are going to lie in it. You are an adult, and must make your own mistakes.

    I am replying to these posts because I hope that some poor souls may be caused to think about the potential consequences of their errors, and go seek another Shepherd, rather than you.

    It gives me no pleasure to say these things, but I AM fearful - because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. For our God is a consuming fire.

    You may like to consider those words carefully.

    "...And when the grave takes us, let us sleep content for all eternity..."

    Sounds good, if somewhat unlikely. Turn around, before it's too late, John.

    'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked' God says.

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  55. Asyncritus:
    Thank you for your work in replying to my posts.
    With regards to you “monumental ass” question:
    Cults like the Christadelphians believe in outlandish, bizarre things, such as talking snakes and donkeys, the sun standing still to facilitate a battle, a young Earth, creation myths, a virgin birth, the resurrected Christadelphians will rule the World for a thousand years after a period of genocide and thousands of other foolish and impossible things. Ex-Christadelphians have managed to escape from the cult to which they once belonged. Current Christadelphians have no idea what it means and feels like to escape.
    At first it is a highly traumatic and unpleasant experience as your mind adjusts back to normality. It’s like awaking from a weird dream and your mind takes a while to readjust back to normality. Have you ever experienced that? Waking out of Christadelphianism is like that; but much worse, because it was not a dream; you really did believe all those ridiculous things and you did behave dysfunctionally.
    But when your mind eventually begins to function in a balanced, rational way it is a wonderful thing. Everyone who escapes from a cult reports the same satisfaction when they regain control of their minds and leave the craziness behind. You look back at your time in the cult and like me you can feel that you were a “monumental ass” to have been involved. Corky wrote “What’s wrong with our brains” (that we believed all that nonsense).
    Asyncritus: I suspect that you might eventually come to share the joy that we feel. The Ex-Christadelphian movement is growing rapidly and intelligent Christadelphians like you are joining our ranks on a weekly basis. Our outreach work is developing and becoming increasingly effective at rescuing Christadelphians. I am hoping that you and others will eventually come to realise that what lies beyond Christadelphianism is exciting, rewarding and fulfilling.
    Christadelphians think that they have “The Truth.” But they are gravely mistaken. We Ex-Christadelphians don’t have “The Truth” but we do appear to have some vital parts of it. By that I mean the findings of science and of the advance of human understanding. Those who join us can contribute to the wonderful search for further truth and understanding.
    So to get back you your question: “How do we know you're not being just as monumental an ass now, teaching these things you now espouse?” - You have to weigh what I am advocating in your own mind and determine the truth or otherwise for yourself. That us all that I ask. If you think that I am mistaken, then please tell me and let us discuss. If somewhere back in the furthest reaches of your mind you have an inkling that I might be onto something real; then don’t tell me lest you feel that you are displaying weakness. Instead discuss with me and probe my mind to see if there is anything else in my head that might enrich your thinking and further your search for truth.

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  56. Asyncritus:
    Thank you for your work in replying to my posts.
    With regards to you “ten commandments” question:
    There was a pillar discovered in 1902 near what was ancient Babylon that when reassembled the upper part showed King Hammurabi (who reigned from 1725-1686 B.C.) and the lower part which exhibited over 300 laws, of which were close to the Mosiac laws. There is also the Code of Lipit Ishtar and the Code of King Bilalama of Eshnunna which pre-date the Code of Hammurabi.
    Civilisation owes nothing whatsoever to the Ten Commandments. Codified law began long before the Israelites and The Ten Commandments were almost certainly plagiarised from previous Sumerian and Babylonian law at the time of the Babylonian exile. The Egyptians had similar laws. Surely you don’t think that stealing, killing and taking other people’s wives was acceptable in the civilised world before Moses?

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  57. Asyncritus:
    In answer to your question regarding proposed Christadelphian genocide I quote the following from my article on this blog “The physician who doctored the truth”
    http://ex-christadelphian.blogspot.com.au/2010/11/physician-who-doctored-truth.html :
    “Dr Thomas elaborates in detail how his immortal immoral Christadelphians will steal and plunder from the mortal population of the world:
    "The estates of all the misers of this present evil world will be turned to righteous and beneficent account by and bye, in the hands of Jesus and His brethren. Only when that time comes they won't have to wait the death of the misers. They will take possession, and turn the owners adrift, in most cases into the grave." ... "All the earth will learn at the cost of much blood and treasure......"
    This from Dr Thomas writing in "Elpis Israel":
    "The sword only, can prepare the way for this. Mankind must be made to lick the dust like a serpent, before they will consent to change their creeds for eternal truth. Judgment will bring them to reason"............. "Nothing but violence in the beginning, in order to punish and crush the tyrants, can prepare the way for the amelioration of society. This is the order, as I shall show, which God has ordained as preliminary to the setting up of His kingdom."
    This from Robert Roberts the first editor of the Christadelphian magazine and close friend of Dr Thomas:
    "He (Christ) will enter into conflict with the world, drive Gentile power from every throne, and establish His kingdom under the whole heaven. Christadelphian operations will then be transferred from the arena of debate to that of military coercion."
    More detail of this Christadelphian instigated genocide is given by Robert Roberts in Christendom Astray lecture 15:
    "God Himself will operate in visible judgment upon the nations of the earth.......... a divine manifestation in the person of the Son of Man accompanied by sweeping judgments of fire and sword which will destroy large masses of mankind.......... The vengeance in relation to mankind will be destruction to the majority, and discipline to the remnant. Multitudes will perish by war and pestilence; multitudes more will fall victims to the fire which will descend............... The earth's population will be greatly thinned; its reprobate elements expurgated, leaving a residue composed of the meek and submissive, and well–disposed of mankind, who will constitute the willing subjects of Messiah's kingdom........ The saints co–operate with Christ in executing the judgments written. ...........It will be their privilege "to execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people.......Thus it is obvious that in the closing judgment–scenes of this dispensation, the saints will be associated with the Lord Jesus in destroying the political, ecclesiastical, and social systems.............. This is a work of devastation ................ will involve much destruction of life, ....... Widespread will be the desolations produced; bloody and scathing the judgments ministered at the hands of Jesus and the saints. (Christadelphians)"
    The corruption of the various American TV evangelists who are currently languishing in US jails is eclipsed by the evil that the founders of Christadelphianism proposed to unleash on the World. They were planning to kill and maim millions, perhaps billions of humanity in a forty year Holy Spirit empowered orgy of death and violence.

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  58. Asyncritus:
    I answer to your question about Atheism not solving the problems of the World (the excesses of Stalin etc):
    Atheism is NOT the answer to the World’s problems, but neither is religion, which has been the cause of most wars and suffering since it was invented thousands of years before Christ. There is no easy answer, but some form of enlightened, liberal, democratic, humanist, inclusive, tolerant, non-racial, non-religious, non-superstitious philosophy is likely to be the way forwards. Theocratically ruled societies, such as that governed by Catholicism in the Dark Ages, or Islam in today’s Iran, or Christadelphians in a future Kingdom are clearly not workable or viable.
    Nazi philosophy was based on Catholic principles. Hitler was an avowed Catholic who never renounced his faith and who frequently quoted God in “Mien Kampf” and in his speeches. He based his genocide of the Jews on a wish to fulfil the commands of God and this can be seen in the first chapter of Mien Kampf. Catholic priests officiated in concentration camps. In one sense, World War Two was an attempt by Catholicism to regain political control in Europe. This is a gross oversimplification, but it was certainly a part of the story.

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  59. Asyncritus:
    Asyncritus:
    With regard to your question “he killed women who were raped in the city,
    ?????” I am referring to Deuteronomy 22:23-24. Read it please. That is the trouble with you Christadelphians; you never read your Bibles. You only read the bits that suit you. Women raped in the city were stoned to death. How would you like that to happen to you my beloved sister? I would give my life to prevent you suffering such a cruel fate. But like a mad iatola your God commands it. He is no better than Molech or any of the other foul deities of the Ancient World.
    With regard to you comments: “the land is God's, to do with as He pleased, and to give it to whoever He pleased too. So what's your point?” And “If you really want to know WHY He wanted to get rid of them, you might like to read Leviticus 18. Wouldn't you want to get rid of such scum?” – This is a racist, Nazi, Fascist type of thinking. If you are going to abandon your inner conscience of right and wrong to follow the God of the Bible, you are prostituting your thinking and beliefs to the evil, corrupt, dirty old men who wrote the Bible in the first place. Ultimately you have to trust in yourself and in your own ability to discern right from wrong and good from evil. Your assessment of the Bible must submit to that test. But your conscience appears to have been “seared with a hot iron.” Your moral guide appears to be “might is right” regardless of the suffering of the victims. This is why I say that Christadelphians are dangerous people. Asyncritus: What you have written above is pure evil. Can’t you discern that fact? Probably not. Not because you are intrinsically evil, but because your mind is trapped in a wicked, dysfunctional cult that makes you judge morality through a distorted lens. Hitler told his people that they were the Master race and you Christadelphians think that you will be the Master race of the Kingdom when you will be able to kill people, including me and my young family and steal our assets. Please stop being completely and utterly stupid. You are tripping out on deluded religious mania and your sense of morality is about as sophisticated and enlightened as the Nazi SS who intoxicated themselves on vodka and shot Jews and Russians in the back of the head and watched them fall into mass graves. You and your fellow Christadelphians have completely lost your moral compass. We Ex-Christadelphians sorrow for you all that you have plumbed the very depths of human moral degradation in your thinking and yet like the citizens of Germans during the World War you imagine yourselves to be whiter than the driven snow. Christadelphianism condones genocide in the Bronze Age and plans it for the future age and you are blind to the immorality of the whole thing. Ahhhhhhhhhh! It is so very, very wicked of you. Please snap out of this and come to your senses. That is why we Ex-Christadelphians are seeking to rescue you poor people. And when we do sometimes rescue a Christadelphian from their corrupt philosophy, they feel as we do; dirty, defiled, foolish and unclean that they ever believed all that perversion. And like fire-fighters pulling people out of a burning building, we Ex-Christadelphians are thankful that we have pulled another soul to safety. Wake up Asyncritus. You are sitting in a pool of stinking, filthy, evil morality that is worse than Islam. I’m offering you my hand to pull you out to a place where the air is fresh and clean; a place where you can love your fellow humanity and give your all to furthering their peace, their understanding, their health and their well being. Please join us.

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  60. Asyncritus:
    With regard to your veiled threats towards me of suffering and death at the hands of your evil, demonic God, I hardly know what to say. You are like a gangster warning me that your gang leader has the resources to “teach me a lesson” or “finish me off.” You Christadelphians are ALL the same and I was PRECISELY like you when I was a member of your wicked sect. That is why I feel such shame, embarrassment and humility that I was so foolish to have been baptised into the Christadelphian movement. I feel terribly sorry for you Asyncritus, and for all of my other beloved brethren and sisters that I left behind in the cess pit, who are still mouthing insults and throwing filth at passers by. I am deeply sorry that it took me a quarter of a century after I left, before, like the Chief Butler to Pharaoh, I remembered Joseph back in jail and resolved to come back to rescue you from your imprisonment. I spent a quarter of a century as a Christadelphian ignorantly tricking people into the religion and then I spent a further quarter of a century rejoicing in my freedom from corrupt Christadelphianism. I completely forgot about the poor wretches that I left behind. I am indeed “The Chief of Sinners” and I hang my head in shame that failed you all so badly. I apologise to all the Christadelphians that I was such a rat. But things have changed. My hand is reaching back into the cess pit and I am going to pull some of you out and get your minds cleaned up. You can throw all the insults you want at me and threaten me with death and suffering from your God. To me you are as harmless as children in a nursery playing with plastic toy guns. I’m going to get some of you out and when I do, they will hopefully join with me to rescue more Christadelphians until we close that ridiculous religion.

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  61. I'll get back to the bulk of these in a little while.

    But I note that you have not really answered my question in this prolonged rant. Please try to do so.

    If you were such a monumental ass as to believe and promulgate our beliefs and teachings once, then why should we suppose that you are not just as monumental an ass in attacking them?

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  62. Asyncritus:
    You have no reason to suppose that I am not being a monumental ass in opposing Christadelphian beliefs, any more than when I was advocating those same beliefs. You must judge for yourself the truth and the wisdom, or the error and foolishness of what I am saying and make your own informed decision.
    My own view is that how I think now is better. But I am always on the look-out for ways to advance my understanding of things. I am open-minded. You would not believe how open-minded I am.
    Unfortunately you are trapped in a cult and in that situation being open-minded is virtually impossible. I know because I was once like you. I’m trying to plant some seeds of doubt in your mind in the hope that years from now they will come to fruition. But it is probably going to take some traumatic event in your life before what I am proposing to you germinates in your mind and you gain your freedom.
    If and when that happens, if I am still alive, I will be here for you, because it might not be pretty. It usually takes something traumatic and awful to get people out of the Christadelphians and then the leaving itself can also be very traumatic.
    It’s not an easy thing that I am asking of you Christadelphians. I’m asking you to accept that your whole life as Christadelphians was a complete waste of time and effort. The whole thing was in vain. There never was any “Hope of Israel” – it never existed in the first place. There is no God and there will be no Kingdom or eternal life. “Every tear” is not going to be “wiped from our eyes.” We live in an indifferent Universe that cares not for our suffering and does not heed our deaths, no matter how painful. We are alone out here in our galaxy.
    But awful as that prospect may appear to members of the cult, when you finally get out and gain control of your own mind, it’s kind of nice. I would not turn back the clock to my Christadelphian days for anything in the World. I can’t explain it and you will think it strange, but I would not swap what I have. My hard won freedom from my family religion is one of the most precious things in the World to me.
    If and when you gain this prize, you will tell me that I was right. You will then understand why we write on this blog. You will feel the same responsibility as us to offer help to your beloved brethren and sisters who you have left behind in darkness.

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  63. You have not provided me with any real justification for not considering you a monumental ass now.

    Your opinions now are pretty subjective, as a careful reading of your last post shows quite clearly.

    You have provided no evidence for the truth of your rather rash and desolate statements.

    So I trust your followers who are reading this exchange will take careful note of that fact.

    I at least have the backing of the Scriptures for what I say, whether or not you accept their authority.

    What have you got? Probably the depressing statements and pathetic philosophisings of some dreary and hopeless 'philosophers'.

    Just BTW, mentioning philosophers, reminds me: did you know that the 'world's most notorious atheist philosopher', Antony Flew, recanted shortly before he died?

    That was a kick in the teeth for his atheistic pals in the establishment.

    Know why he changed? Two reasons.

    1 The fine tuning of the universe. The physicists and cosmologists seem with one voice to be saying that those items cannot be chance productions. Read Paul Davies and you'll see what I mean.

    2 The genetic code. Did you know that the human genome has about 3.5 BILLION bits of information in it?

    If that's a coded message, and every scientist agrees that it is a CODE rather than a jumble of biochemical junk, then how did it originate?

    The Morse code consists of 36 symbols. So how do you think the genetic code arose?

    Flew thought God did it. So does Francis Collins the director of the human genome project. And an awful lot of people besides.

    It's only people like that donkey Dawkins who could think otherwise.

    Why not wise up, and get away from those jokers? Science is flagging you down, never mind me and my 'veiled threats'. Didn't think they were in any way 'veiled', but there you go.

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  64. Asyncritus:
    I am sure that some of what I write is monumentally asinine. If I knew what bits they are, I would either delete or re-write them. I’m just trying my best to illuminate truth and I’m sure that I’m making a fairly amateurish job of it. But I am trying. I am NOT trying to write a Holy Book and I am not trying to make out that I am inspired by God, or Father Christmas, or Zeus, or any other supernatural being.
    If you think that I am being a monumental ass then that’s OK. Maybe you are 100% correct or maybe you are partially correct; who knows? My point was that I feel a monumental ass for believing Christadelphian teaching. That is 100% correct. That is how I feel and I can testify to the truth of how I feel about my time as a Christadelphian.
    Some of what I write will be true and some will be garbage. You, I and all of my readers need to sift through my work and form their own judgment. I only ask that people let me know where there are obvious errors so that I can advance my own understanding of truth.

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  65. I wouldn't say the universe is "finely tuned" to life. In fact, it's very dangerous for life. I wouldn't say that our environment on earth is "finely tuned" either. It's more like we are finely tuned to our environment by the process of evolution. There is no way we could have survived in the world of the dinosaurs - it was way too hot for humans.

    Antony Flew? No one knows what he thought near the time of his death. He had dementia so bad that he only remembered important things on his best days. Oh, and by the way, even if what was told by fundie Xians about Flew was true - it was a deist god that he accepted and not the Xian one.

    Darwin? He didn't recant on his death bed either - just some more made up Xian lies - typical.

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  66. Asyncritus:

    Of course the Universe is fine tuned; otherwise we would not be here.

    How did it get fine tuned? Science is working on that problem and the most likely answer appears to be that we are part of a Multiverse containing unimaginably large numbers of Universes, of which only a vanishingly small number are tuned for life as we know it. We can see that this principle hold true of the gazillions of galaxies, stars and planets in our Universe; very few of them are “fine tuned” like Earth to accommodate life.

    But whatever the answer, it will be found and then another “gap” in our knowledge where you Christadelphians shove your shrinking God, will be closed to you.

    Don’t you see how silly you are being? Because you don’t have a single shred of credible evidence to prove even the existence of your God, you grab hold of the few remaining voids in human understanding, (like why is the Universe finely tuned, or how did life originate? etc) and triumphantly bellow that you have found your God. But you have NOT proved that your God fine tuned the Universe, or created life or anything at all. I could equally well claim that one of Sata Clause’s elves fine tuned the Universe or that my dog created life. I can’t prove that and neither can you prove that your made up God did any of these things.

    You are arguing from ignorance, not from knowledge. You are like a primitive Neanderthal person watching lightening hit a tree and deducing that his god must be angry. To him it proves the existence of his god; just like you scratch around in science to find something that has not yet been fully understood and when you find something you slap a “God did this” sticker on it.

    Four hundred years ago almost everything could have had one of your “God did this” stickers on it, because science was only just emerging from the Dark Ages of religion enforced ignorance. But since that time science has peeled off millions of your stickers and revealed the truth about these things. And the truth that they discovered was that natural causes were the reason for these things, not God.

    I’m not going to play your immature, hide and seek game of “I don’t understand something so the Christian God must have done it.”

    The apostle said that your faith is “…..the evidence of things not seen.” Why not accept what your supposedly divinely inspired writer has told you and acknowledge that it is impossible to see your evidence because it is “not seen”? An impartial judge can then understand that you don’t have a shred of credible, visible evidence for what you believe and declare “Case dismissed for lack of evidence!”

    The only possible way to “prove” your faith is to say, as the apostle does, that the evidence for what you believe is “not seen” and that “these things are spiritually discerned” and that people like me “have not the Spirit.” At least that does make logical sense. It still does not prove anything and it sets the World up for the thousands of different, conflicting versions of Christianity that we have seen since then; with each sect saying that the others “Don’t have the Sprit.” But I don’t understand you trying to wave gaps in human understanding at me as “evidence” when your Holy Book emphatically declares your “evidence” to be “not seen.” Please stick to what the Bible says and end your contempt for Biblical teaching and your blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by seeking to produce evidence which is “evidence …not seen.” Are you saying that you have no faith that the Holy Sprit can reveal this evidence to me as your Apostle declares?

    Oh ye of little faith Asyncritus! Have faith in the Sprit of God that has told you that the evidence for your faith is “not seen” and that the “substance” of your belief is what you “hope for.” (Hebrews chapter 11:1) Live a life of faith, like all Christians, in the “hope” that your “evidence…not seen” is not a First Century confidence trick manufactured by the precursors of the Catholic faith that went on the sell indulgences and holy relics to gullible people.

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  67. I wouldn't say the universe is "finely tuned" to life. In fact, it's very dangerous for life. I wouldn't say that our environment on earth is "finely tuned" either.

    You haven't a clue either, have you Corky?

    Sir Roger Penrose FRS, said that in order to get things right. the Creator's aim must have been accurate to i part in 10 raised to the power 10^125. If you tried to write that out in the normal decimal way you wouldn't be able to write it out, even if you put a zero on every particle in the universe, because there aren't enough particles!

    That's what fine tuning means. The universe is constructed with such a degree of brilliance they haven't the words for it.

    So don't talk to me about evolution and that idiot Dawkins.

    It's more like we are finely tuned to our environment by the process of evolution.

    Ha hah haaaa! Oh dear. You won't ever learn, will you? You or your pals Gilmore, Fortigurn, Tarkus and the rest of the barbershop quartet. You deserve each other.

    There is no way we could have survived in the world of the dinosaurs - it was way too hot for humans.

    Solemn clapping from me....

    Antony Flew? No one knows what he thought near the time of his death. He had dementia so bad that he only remembered important things on his best days. Oh, and by the way, even if what was told by fundie Xians about Flew was true - it was a deist god that he accepted and not the Xian one.

    Nobody said he wwas a Christian, least of all me. But he was convinced of the existence of a God.

    He said (p155) I have followed the argument where it has led me. And it has led me to accept the existence of a self-existent, immutable, immaterial, omnipotent and omniscient Being'.

    That sound like someone with dementia?

    Darwin? He didn't recant on his death bed either - just some more made up Xian lies - typical.

    Who cares if Darwin recanted? Not me - the damage he has done is incalculable, and I expect he'll hear all about it some time. God is not mocked - by you or anyone else.

    But you didn't say anything about the 3.5 BILLION bits of the human genetic code. Think all that happened by chance, do you?

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  68. Of course the Universe is fine tuned; otherwise we would not be here.

    How true!

    How did it get fine tuned? Science is working on that problem and the most likely answer appears to be that we are part of a Multiverse containing unimaginably large numbers of Universes, of which only a vanishingly small number are tuned for life as we know it.

    You still don't get it, do you?

    Can't you see that it takes an awful lot less faith to believe in a single universe created by God than in this idiotic 'multiverse' concept with any number of gods prancing about creating?

    You a polytheist or something now?

    We can see that this principle hold true of the gazillions of galaxies, stars and planets in our Universe; very few of them are “fine tuned” like Earth to accommodate life.

    'Very few' is an exaggeration. Science only knows one, John.

    But whatever the answer, it will be found and then another “gap” in our knowledge where you Christadelphians shove your shrinking God, will be closed to you.

    Shrinking God?

    The physicists' discoveries are shoving them into admitting that there must be a God. It's the advances in science that are forcing them to do so, not the gaps.

    They're struggling to avoid the God theory, but can't do so.

    Gonzalez and Jay Richards said: 'Perhaps we have been staring past a cosmic signal far more significant than any mere sequence of numbers, a signal revealing a universe so skilfully crafted for life and discovery that it seems to whisper of an extraterrestrial intelligence immeasurably more vast,more ancient, and more magnificent than anything we've been willing to expect or imagine'.

    These guys are scientists, not theologians - but I couldn't hve written that any better.

    Don’t you see how silly you are being? Because you don’t have a single shred of credible evidence to prove even the existence of your God, you grab hold of the few remaining voids in human understanding, (like why is the Universe finely tuned, or how did life originate? etc)

    See above quote.

    Back later.

    ReplyDelete
  69. John Bedson, possible Monumental Ass says:
    Don’t you see how silly you are being? Because you don’t have a single shred of credible evidence to prove even the existence of your God, you grab hold of the few remaining voids in human understanding, (like why is the Universe finely tuned, or how did life originate? etc) and triumphantly bellow that you have found your God. But you have NOT proved that your God fine tuned the Universe, or created life or anything at all. I could equally well claim that one of Sata Clause’s elves fine tuned the Universe or that my dog created life. I can’t prove that and neither can you prove that your made up God did any of these things.
    John Lennox, PhD D Phil D Sc Professor of Mathematics, University of Oxford says:
    ..’It is advance in science, not ignorance of science, that has revealed this fine tuning to us. In that sense there is no ‘gap’ in the science. The question is rather: How should we interpret the science? In which direction is it pointing?’

    Who do I believe?

    You are arguing from ignorance, not from knowledge. You are like a primitive Neanderthal person watching lightening hit a tree and deducing that his god must be angry. To him it proves the existence of his god; just like you scratch around in science to find something that has not yet been fully understood and when you find something you slap a “God did this” sticker on it.

    Neanderthal man had a much bigger brain than modern men (such as yourself). What does that mean?

    Four hundred years ago almost everything could have had one of your “God did this” stickers on it, because science was only just emerging from the Dark Ages of religion enforced ignorance. But since that time science has peeled off millions of your stickers and revealed the truth about these things. And the truth that they discovered was that natural causes were the reason for these things, not God.

    Arno Penzias, Nobel Prize Winner in Physics said:

    ‘Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide the right conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one mightsay ‘supernatural’) plan’.

    ou are going with that one.

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  70. I’m not going to play your immature, hide and seek game of “I don’t understand something so the Christian God must have done it.”

    Sir Fred Hoyle, eminent astronomer and mathematician said that nothing had shaken his atheism as much as the degree to which the nuclear ground state energy levels have been fine-tuned. This degree of fine tuning was enough to persuade him that it looked as if ‘a superintellect had monkeyed with physics as well as with chemistry and biology’,and that ‘there are no blind forces in nature worth talking about’.
    Why then are you talking about such things?

    The apostle said that your faith is “…..the evidence of things not seen.” Why not accept what your supposedly divinely inspired writer has told you and acknowledge that it is impossible to see your evidence because it is “not seen”? An impartial judge can then understand that you don’t have a shred of credible, visible evidence for what you believe and declare “Case dismissed for lack of evidence!”

    The forces we are talking about here can definitely NOT be seen – so he was right.

    But if he was right in that matter, then he must have been right in many others – including the existence of God: hence his remark : He that cometh to God MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

    You seem to accept that passage in Heb 11.1. Why don’t you accept the verse I just quoted? It comes from the same chapter, you know.

    The only possible way to “prove” your faith is to say, as the apostle does, that the evidence for what you believe is “not seen” and that “these things are spiritually discerned” and that people like me “have not the Spirit.” At least that does make logical sense. It still does not prove anything and it sets the World up for the thousands of different, conflicting versions of Christianity that we have seen since then; with each sect saying that the others “Don’t have the Sprit.”

    You once did – I know, because I read some of the things you wrote.

    We Christadelphians don’t accuse others of ‘not having the spirit’ – I’ve never said that myself, nor have I heard others say it. We think they are wrong about many things as you once thought too.

    But I don’t understand you trying to wave gaps in human understanding at me as “evidence” when your Holy Book emphatically declares your “evidence” to be “not seen.” Please stick to what the Bible says and end your contempt for Biblical teaching and your blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by seeking to produce evidence which is “evidence …not seen.” Are you saying that you have no faith that the Holy Sprit can reveal this evidence to me as your Apostle declares?

    See above remarks about ‘not seen’.

    Oh ye of little faith Asyncritus! Have faith in the Sprit of God that has told you that the evidence for your faith is “not seen” and that the “substance” of your belief is what you “hope for.” (Hebrews chapter 11:1) Live a life of faith, like all Christians, in the “hope” that your “evidence…not seen” is not a First Century confidence trick manufactured by the precursors of the Catholic faith that went on the sell indulgences and holy relics to gullible people.

    As you know, John, or should, anyway, we do nothing of the sort, and despise the practices of those who do. So I’m not quite sure where you're going with this one.

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  71. Asyncritus:

    Thank you for your work in replying. I apreciate that it is time consuming and that time is short for you.

    I need to broaden this discussion because in some ways we are both missing the point here. I think that we are discussing the wrong issue, which is why we are not making any progress. If you will be patient with me I will write a new article for this blog which will explain what I mean. I can't do it with the restraints imposed by these short answers. I'll try and get it completed over the weekend.

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  72. Please forgive me deleted posts. I like to correct my errors when I see them.

    Asyncritus:

    What have you read of my Christadelphian works of thirty years ago? Did you watch my "Miracle of Israel" film? Did your hear me speak from the platform? Did you know me then? Have you read all of my many articles on this blog? Have you read "The physician who doctored the truth?" on this blog? That was one of my best.

    I am preparing a series of videos on Ex-Christadlphianism; so soon I shall stop writing articles and instead publish videos here. I am hoping that they will reach a wider audience.

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  73. REASONS FOR BELIEVING THE TRUTH 1

    There IS a God

    No-one who calmly studies the natural world with any degree of care, and without the atheistic blinkers on, can fail to see that it has been created by an Intelligence far superior to our own.

    The physicists and cosmologists have been forced to accept the fact that there is a God – they won’t, of course, go as far as saying the Christian God, but the evidence of their own eyes and mathematical calculations – which are far beyond the ability of most lay people to grasp – show that the laws which govern the universe, the forces which hold it together, the Big Bang itself, are all far too cleverly, no, brilliantly put together for them to have happened by some fluke.

    Some of the analogies they have drawn – and remember, these are not religiously biased people: they go where the facts lead them – are mind-blowing. Professor Paul Davies, well respected authority in cosmology and Physics tells us: If the ratio of the strong nuclear force to the electromagnetic force had been different by one part in 10 raised to the power 16, no stars could have formed.

    Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist gives this analogy:
    Cover America with coins in a column reaching to the moon 260,000 miles away, then do the same for a BILLION other continents of the same size. Paint one coin red, and place it somewhere in one of the billion piles. Blindfold a friend and ask her to pick it out. The odds are about 1 in 10 exp 40 that she will.

    Davies says it differently. The kind of accuracy we’re talking about is the sort a marksman would need to hit a coin at the far side of the observable universe.

    ReplyDelete
  74. REASONS FOR BELIEVING THE TRUTH 2
    Those are the physicists and cosmologists. The biologists have been producing some pretty startling facts too.

    I mentioned one previously : the genetic code in humans. It contains 3.5 BILLION bits of information (nucleotide pairs, to be precise). It is responsible for the construction of a new human being from a single cell.

    That such a thing could happen by the processes of mutations and natural selection is a concept that only lunatics could support.

    Not only that, but the recently published ebook How Does Instinct Evolve ( get one from www.howdoesinstinctevolve.com) goes into astonishing detail of processes which could never have happened by chance.

    The most startling one to my mind is the fact that the swallows of Capistrano arrive in Capistrano, California on the 18th of March every year, and leave on October 23rd precisely.

    That’s hard enough for an evolutionist to explain – but when it was discovered that they fly to Capistrano from Goya in Argentina, 7,800 miles away, there was a lot of evolutionist jaw-dropping and fancy footwork to avoid the blindingly obvious conclusion that this was a direct creation by God.

    But those are only a sprinkling of the relevant facts, and I strongly recommend that if you are an unbeliever, that you go get yourself a copy of the ebook (it’s only $19.97USD) and read yourself rich with the wonderful facts and arguments it contains.

    But that brings us to the nub of my appeal to you all.

    IF what I’m saying is true, then where do you go from here?

    The fact that there’s a God cannot be rationally gainsaid. (Remember Antony Flew - the world's most notorious atheist philosopher who changed his mind).

    And if there is one, then He wants you, and biblically speaking, He gave His Son’s life for your sins.

    Are you going to continue dangling on the cliff edge by your fingernails till you fall off, or hear your Shepherd’s call to come home?

    ReplyDelete
  75. What have you read of my Christadelphian works of thirty years ago? Did you watch my "Miracle of Israel" film? Did your hear me speak from the platform? Did you know me then?

    I believe that I did see the film, and did hear you speak. I did know you then.

    So you can imagine my sorrow at reading all this.

    Have you read all of my many articles on this blog? Have you read "The physician who doctored the truth?" on this blog? That was one of my best.

    Or worst.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Erm, no.

    That's a trifle improbable. I think I knew you after you were married. You had just started publishing Lightstand - or was it Lampstand?

    Keep reading me too. You'll find a lot there that you don't know.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Asyncritus,

    Often, claims that scientists reject evolution or support creationism are exaggerated or fraudulent. Many scientists doubt some aspects of evolution, especially recent hypotheses about it. All good scientists are skeptical about evolution (and everything else) and open to the possibility, however remote, that serious challenges to it may appear. Creationists frequently seize such expressions of healthy skepticism to imply that evolution is highly questionable. They fail to understand that the fact that evolution has withstood many years of such questioning really means it is about as certain as facts can get.

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  78. The reason mathematical calculations for the odds of evolution don't work is because there are no numbers on which to base any calculations. The fact that we are here drastically reduces the odds of it happening anyway.

    The mathematical impossibility of evolution calculations were debunked about 40 years ago - such as the claim of Henry Morris.

    Morris's claim: Successful production of a 200-component functioning organism requires at least 200 beneficial mutations. The odds of getting that many successive beneficial mutations is r200, where r is the rate of beneficial mutations. Even if r is 0.5 (and it is really much smaller), that makes the odds worse than 1 in 10 to the 60th power, which is impossibly small.

    Morris's calculation assumes that all the beneficial mutations must occur consecutively with no other mutations occurring in the meantime. When one allows harmful mutations that get selected out along the way, 200 beneficial mutations would accumulate fairly quickly -- in 200/r generations using the assumptions of Morris's model. (The real world is quite a bit more complicated yet. In particular, large populations and genetic recombination via sex can allow beneficial mutations to accumulate at a greater rate.)

    ReplyDelete
  79. Often, claims that scientists reject evolution or support creationism are exaggerated or fraudulent.?

    And often they are not.

    Many scientists doubt some aspects of evolution, especially recent hypotheses about it. All good scientists are skeptical about evolution (and everything else) and open to the possibility, however remote, that serious challenges to it may appear.

    The apparent number of scoffers is skewed - because if they are in universities, they will lose their jobs. How then do you or anyone else know who's who?

    I've quoted a number of very serious people who think evolution is nonsense.

    I certainly do, and not on religious grounds - purely scientific ones.

    Creationists frequently seize such expressions of healthy skepticism to imply that evolution is highly questionable. They fail to understand that the fact that evolution has withstood many years of such questioning really means it is about as certain as facts can get.

    If you took the trouble to learn something about it rather than parrotting the majority view as you see it, then you'd soon understand my total skepticism, and the skepticism of others.

    I quoted the figures about the human genome. There are 3.5 BILLION NUCLEOTIDE PAIRS. Do you as an intelligent (one supposes) human, even begin to imagine that such a thing could just happen by chance?

    The technicalities are too much for a forum such as this, but the fact that the Director of the Human Genome project himself recognises it as 'The Language of God' (that's the name of Francis Collins' the Director's book), that fact alone must surely make you, a layman, have some doubts about your allegedly scientific rejection of the existence of God?

    Then we read Paul Davies and other cosmologists expressing the view that the universe looks most certainly as if it has been designed from the time of the Big Bang.

    Who are you to argue with such people?

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  80. The mathematical impossibility of evolution calculations were debunked about 40 years ago - such as the claim of Henry Morris.

    You can't have read John Lennox. He's far more recent, and makes Dawkins look like a thoroughgoing ass.

    His book is called 'God's Undertaker - Has Science Buried God?

    Read it, educate yourself and perhaps you wouldn't be so easily misled.

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  81. Well, it does look designed - but then so does a snowflake and no two are alike.

    But, as far as me taking the time "to learn something about it", I have. That's why I know that it's true, whether I want it to be true or not. That has nothing to do with it. In fact, if you can show that "God did it", I don't have a problem with that either - but, you can't - and putting God into the picture just causes more unanswered questions for which there are no possible answers.

    However, from reading your above about the human genome, I do know for a fact that you have no idea what you're talking about. You talk as if you don't think evolutionary biologist know about such things.

    If you want to know about biology, ask a Biology teacher - don't ask the Math teacher. And, whatever you do, don't bother the electrical engineers about it.

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  82. Do you know what I'm talking about when I say that Francis Collins and the HGP established that the human genome has 3.5 billion nucleotide pairs?

    If that's incorrect, please provide proof.

    If correct, account for its existence and formation.

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  83. My computer blew up yesterday, so I have not been able to write my new article on this subject. I have been installing programs etc on a new one. I will try to write it for early next week instead.

    You say: ".... that the human genome has 3.5 billion nucleotide pairs? If that's incorrect, please provide proof. If correct, account for its existence and formation."

    We don't have to account for anything. We just wait for science to explain these things in the course of time. That is what has happened for the past three hundred years and that is what will continue to happen. It will probably be three thousand years before we get ALL of the answers, but in time the answers will come.

    Your task Asyncritus is to provide some sort of convincing proof that the God of the Bible created the complex things of nature. You have not even started on that problem yet. Just because a renegade Pharisee claimed in Romans 1:20 that his God made the Universe that is no reason for us all to convert to Christadelphianism. Many thousands of different religions over the past fifty thousand years have offered to explain who made everything and they all contradict each other. Why should we believe that the Christadelphian God is any more convincing than any of the other gods?

    Yes the Natural World is incredibly complex. But the Bible is NOT complex at all. God confirmed his covenant with Abraham by waving a lamp between two piles of dead meat. And you mean to tell me that this was the guy who designed the Human Genome and put Quarks together?

    I am supposed to believe that the person who designed the Atomic Periodic Table thought that women were unclean once a month and had to make a sin offering to atone?

    I am supposed to believe that the inventor of Electrons and Protons inspired the completely incomprehensible book of Revelation to be written?

    It just does not make any sense. The Bible is a ragbag of nonsense and contradiction. It does not bear any of the hallmarks of the wonders of the Universe. Only a person with their mind completely fixated on wanting it to be true, regardless of common sense, would believe such a thing.

    Corky and I could not care less what is true here. We are willing to believe anything if we see convincing evidence. But the evidence that you are putting forwards is the evidence of someone who is obsessed with proving something. You have the cart before the horse. Instead of letting the evidence lead to a conclusion, you are searching for ways to prove a conclusion that you arrived at before you started looking at the evidence. That is not how good science works. In fact that is how we came to suffer The Dark Ages; thanks to the Christians who were suppressing human investigation of science because they thought that they already knew how the World works. How wrong they were about that.

    The Apostle Paul should have written "Faith is the suspension of common sense."

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  84. Now why would he do that?

    You have ranted again - it's getting to be habit now, but you're probably too old to change.

    You and Corky don't have any answers to provide for what are extremely well observed facts.(Incidentally, evolution is a theory, never mind Dawkins and his pathetic bleating that it's a fact.

    I say God did it.

    You say: Duuhhhh, and here comes the rant.

    I am asking reasonable questions, and making the inference to the best explanation.

    Example: I say here's a 3.5 BILLION piece coded message which builds a human being from practically scratch. It is encoded on a chip much smaller than the point of a pin.

    Inference to the best explanation: God did it.

    What's yours? Duhhhh. Rant rant rant.

    I really hope your followers on this page are taking note of your utter helplessness to explain anything in any rational way.

    I really hope that your helplessness will move some of them to review their positions in the light of what are solid SOLID scientific facts - not that pathetic patchwork of putrescent junk called the theory of evolution.

    As I see it, there are only 2 explanations current for the living world and the universe.

    1 God did it
    2 evolution did it

    In the first case, we have the grand, magisterial and soul-satisfying:

    In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

    In the second, we have

    D-u-u-hhhh.

    You're intelligent guys John, Corky and fellow readers. You must be, or you wouldn't have been Christadelphians, who, by and large are sensible, rational and intelligent people.

    Why remain in thzt miserable band who have sold their birthright and are even now swilling round in the mud of the pigsties of pseudo-intellectual idiocies?

    (That, BTW, as I'm sure you all recognise, comes from the Parable of the Prodigal Son, for whom, despite his follies, his Father waits lovingly).

    Why not make ths sensible choice, and come back home?

    His servants have enough to eat and more. You dine on the husks that swine have refused.

    Why, I ask?

    It's getting late, guys.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Ken Gilmore

    The above link takes you to a Christadelphian forum where "Asyncritus"'s (Wilfred Alleyne) ideas are thoroughly debunked.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Asyncritus:

    Let me try to explain this to you by means of a story.

    Imagine that you are the friend of someone called "God" who thinks that he has won $250,000,000.00 on the Mega Millions draw, but he claims to have lost his winning ticket. So he offers $10,000,000.00 each to anyone who has the nerve to contact the lottery organisers and try to claim the prize on his behalf. If they are successful he will pay them out of his winnings.

    Millions of people take up the challenge and one called "Asyncritus" writes a book explaining why God should be given the credit for winning the lottery draw. The thesis of your book is that God must be the winning claimant because the statistical odds against anyone else winning are so preposterous. You claim that you "cannot possibly imagine" how anyone else could be the winner and that therefore God has to be the winner. Any other explanation is completely beyond your understanding. "If God didn't win the lottery then you tell me who did win. If you can't explain where that winning ticket is then you MUST pay the money to God." you shout at the officials.

    But unfortunately the lottery organisers remain unmoved by your efforts on God's behalf. They insist that God must come up with the missing ticket, otherwise they are not going to pay out. They need some credible evidence that God did originally buy the ticket, otherwise they will conclude the whole "God" claim to be fraudulent or mistaken.

    Over time everyone becomes disillusioned and people realise that they are not going to be paid $10,000,000.00 by God because he's either lost the ticket or he never bought it in the first place.

    Several years later a scientist working at CERN discovers the winning ticket hidden in a pile of charts and he claims the reward. He also gets the Nobel Prize for physics for explaining the origin of the Universe.

    Now do you see our point? You HAVE to produce that missing link that connects your God with the creation of life and of the Universe. Otherwise we think that your claim is either mistaken or fraudulent. You are empty handed. The fact that humans have gaps in their understanding of the Natural World is NOT evidence that your God created what is in those gaps.

    For three hundred years we have watched those gaps being filled in by science and your God gradually squeezed out of the picture. We are not enthusiastic about putting any more God branded "gap filler" into the few remaining gaps, because it has a history of falling out of the gaps when science permanently fills and seals them.

    Your gap filler is no good. We have watched it turn to dust repeatedly. We have lost faith in the product. We demand a refund.

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  87. Your story is no good, John.

    We have as I said, any number of beautiful, extraordinarily ingenious, brilliant, designs in the universe, which the cosmologists (not biologists) are unhappily being forced to admit could only have come from the hand of God.

    Not necessarily the Christian God, mark you, but a God nonetheless.

    I could pile up quotation after quotation from them but I doubt whether they would have any effect on you. You are too encased in the sarcophagus of what you call rationality for common sense to penetrate.

    Biologically speaking, the question of the origin of life, and again, the exceedingly complex and beautiful designs we see, can only be reasonably be answered by saying that God did it.

    The people studying abiogenesis run up against Pasteur's brick wall at every turn, and have to produce ever more fantastic scenarios to attempt to account for how life could have arisen, in some pond or other somewhere on the planet.

    In the name of sanity, common sense and rationality, John, how can anyone explain or account for the arrival of those swallows on the 18th of March every year at Capistrano after a journey of 7,800 miles? And return on the 23rd of October? How,John, how?

    God did it. There is nothing else on offer.

    The leader of the barbershop quartet hadn't a clue either, when asked.

    In much the same way, I suppose, that you have to enter a rant phase when confronted by these SOLID, UNASSAILABLE FACTS which are there by the dozen if anyone cares to look.

    Take the European eels as another example. Those creatures swim from freshwater into the sea (which alone should kill them off!), then swim south along the west coast of Europe and Africa riding the currents, AT A DEPTH OF 3000 FEET DURING THE DAY, AND ABOUT 250 FEET DURING THE NIGHT, then branch off west into the Sargasso Sea.

    They spawn there, and ALL THE ADULTS DIE.

    Then, the babies (glass eels) swim the 3000 or so miles back home with no parents to guide them, believe it or not.

    Inference to the best explanation? God did it. Got anything better?

    Parables

    I'm afraid your lottery parable doesn't quite match up to the Lord's Prodigal Son.

    I suppose if I were to make up one of my own, I might say that there's a magician behind a curtain moving the props about and producing some rather miraculous effects.

    We can't see him, but that doesn't prevent us from realising that He's there, does it? The proof that He's there? Why, the effects themselves, of course.

    But here are you spending huge amounts of effort trying to say that there isn't a magician, and all these things happen by themselves, fell out of the sky. Or crawled out of the evolutionary mud.

    Given your collective intelligence, I find all this amazing, depressing and utterly incomprehensible.

    For Christadelphians, current and past, to say that such wonderful phenomena are the products of blind chance is pathetic, decidedly reprehensible and shameful.

    But I guess you have to say something like that. Because, like the atheists, acceptance of the existence of a God carries responsibilities with it.

    You knew better once, and I suspect you still do. Paul was very much in your situation too.

    And as I keep saying, it's getting late.

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  88. I note that our brethren at Berea are viewing my discussion with Asyncritus as a "Train Wreck" and "It's all a bit sad really, and hardly good PR for our side." I have read the whole thread and I am disgusted with some of the remarks.

    The bad PR for Christadelphians lies in the evident intolerance displayed by these "Brethren of Christ" for one of their own brethren who is valiantly seeking to defend his faith and bring me back into the Christadelphian fold.

    Asyncritus is seeking to give an answer for the hope that lies within him and he needs some support from the people with whom he expects to be spending eternity; not a knife in the back. He may have a somewhat different view of the origin of the Natural World from that of the Bereans, but as Jesus said "Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

    If Genesis wasn't written in such an idiotic manner there would be no division amongst you Christadelphians. But it is written that way, so you will have to put up with the consequence that you can't agree what it means.

    So let us have enough of this arrogant Christadelphian hypocrisy and instead let's see the Spirit of Christ emanate from Berea.

    If you can't find it in your hearts to behave like your saviour then accept my contention that the Word of God Does NOT make people any better than they would normally behave if they had never been exposed to the Word. The Christadelphian religion does NOT improve morality in its adherents. That is one of the things that riled me twenty five years ago when I left. Not only does Christadelphian Christianity NOT achieve its objective in improving people's behaviour, but rather it appears to attract the exclusive, judgemental, arrogant, chip-on-their-shoulder, superior types. The average person in "the World" tends to be far nicer in my view than the average Christadelphian.

    It is easy enough for me to shred your sect on this blog without your recent Pharisaical comments re-enforcing my thesis by sniping at one of their own.

    Please give me something to work with here. There is very little admirable moral teaching in the Bible, but the least you could do is to try to project the good that you have learned and not the reprehensible behaviour that both you Christians and we Humanist Atheists alike are seeking to avoid.

    Or better still, join me in choosing to stand outside Christadelphian Christianity and realise that our common goals of promoting admirable morality can be better achieved by trusting in our own innate ethical conscience and not by heeding any moral guidance from barely civilised Bronze and Iron Age tribal people.

    .... continued in the next post....

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  89. You have already commenced your journey out of the faith by accepting that Genesis is nonsense and needs to be reinterpreted from the ground up. Now complete your journey of scepticism and follow me out of the religion and into the pure air of truly rational thinking where you don't have to keep apologising all the time for an invented God and a Biblical history of spiritual decadence.

    You have begun the journey that I have completed. I am standing on the ground where you are heading with nervous, tentative steps. I was just like you twenty five years ago; pissed off with people like Asyncritus making a mockery of my religion. Sick of apologising for a Bible that was disintegrating in my hands before the advance of human understanding. Worried about the evident contradictions and confusion in Bible prophecy about Israel etc which undermined the validity of that line of evidence. Disturbed by the questionable ethics of Christadelphians who were no better than my neighbours.

    I found it extremely hard to break out of my enchantment with that faith, but over time I managed to break the hold that it had on my mind since early childhood and get myself to somewhere better.

    That is the ground that I am standing on right now and I tell you; its real good out here.

    Have faith in your own selves and not in the writings of ancient forgers. You want to display in your own lives the admirable morality that you admire in certain parts of the Bible. Well I can tell you that it's a lot easier doing it from where I stand than trapped in a religion like the Christadelphians.

    And do you know what I find most rewarding about this? The fact that there is NO reward. You just do it because you know that it is the right thing to do. It's like the difference between being driven in a car and driving yourself. You take control of your own thinking and of your own life and you seek to behave towards other people in a way that would shame Christ and God because they just weren't in the same league, with all their murdering and insane behaviour.

    It can be done. I did it and so can you. It will be a very long and extremely painful and traumatic journey out of that religion. It will try you to your breaking point and beyond. But when you get to where I now stand you will turn to me and say "John, you were right; this is a good place to be."

    Now hold your nerve and get moving forwards.

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  90. I note that our brethren at Berea are viewing my discussion with Asyncritus as a "Train Wreck" and "It's all a bit sad really, and hardly good PR for our side." I have read the whole thread and I am disgusted with some of the remarks.

    I'm sorry John. What are you talking about here? What's Berea? Another blog? From the sound of what you say, the barbershop quartet are in full swing, whwrever it is.

    Point me in the right direction will you?

    Thanks.

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  91. Don't bother.

    I found them.

    Looks as if I was wrong, it's either a quintet of sycophants or worse.

    And the song that they're singing is as sad as ever. 'Evolution is wonderful' (they can't see that the logical consequence of that is that 'there is no God'). At least you do.

    They haven't had the decency to come and write on my blog, though the invitation is open and has been for some time now.

    But thanks for your 'support' - though that is a double-edged sword, I know.

    You're perfectly right, though. Simple decency might have told them to shut up, but that is a commodity in short supply in the quintet.

    But let's not get sidetracked - onward, forward and upward.

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  92. Now where were we?

    I was asking the simple questions that you need answers to, before anyone with a grain of common sense could even consider abandoning the concept of a Creator.

    1 Since the cosmologists are with nearly one voice saying that the fine-tuning of the universe demands the existence of a designer or creator and

    2 Since pieces of evidence such as the human genome are self-evidently not chance productions of ancient biochemical reactions in the primeval world/slime or whatever they may think of next

    Then we have prima facie evidence of the existence of a God (of whatever description).

    It is up to you to gainsay that evidence.

    If you can. of course.

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  93. Asyncritus:

    I find myself in complete agreement with you; as I did with Lenny yesterday. I don't know how to progress our debate much further now that we are in accord across a wide range of issues.

    We both agree that (looking at it with our Christadelphian hats on) the Bereans have brought disgrace on our religion. Or more correctly on your religion and my Ex-religion. However kids will be kids and now that I have rattled their playpen it is likely that they will settle down and play quietly. Ten years from now I expect that they will all be in the Ex-Christadelphian fellowship helping me to rescue souls from what little remains of Non-Carelinks Christadelphia.

    We both agree that in the wonders of the Natural World, including cosmology, "...we have prima facie evidence of the existence of a God (of whatever description)." (sic). I agree with your statement in the way that you have worded it. I suspect that the "of whatever description" part refers to the operation of the basic physical laws of the Universe which to me appear to lack any form of life or consciousness. But I don't know and we have a long road of scientific discovery ahead before we can give definitive answers to these questions. Perhaps you are right and the God who walked with Abraham between two piles of dead meat is the God who created the Universe and listens and responds to the prayers of billions of humans. I am sufficiently agnostic to allow you enough space to be comfortable as my friend.

    We have the solution given by organised religion to these problems and more recently science has made its most welcome contribution towards the advance of human understanding. Most likely we will only have to wait a few hundred more years for the final answers. I have five children and two grandchildren; so it is likely that a percentage of my genes passed down through my descendants will get to know what this Universe is all about. I am content with that prospect. I would have preferred to have known the answers myself, but if not, so be it.

    Isaac Newton said "If I have seen further than other men it is because I have stood on the shoulders of Giants." It is our responsibility to strive to be "giants" in our age so that future generations of enlightened minds will be able to stand on our shoulders and benefit from what we have contributed to this great quest.

    You, Asyncritus are making your contribution and I am doing what I can, in my own inimitable way. The Bereans are also contributing in their own oddball manner.

    So let us unite in our common quest to understand our wonderful Universe and to practice admirable human morality and uphold good ethics in our dealings with each other. Let us speak no more of the excruciating deaths that await people when Christ returns to take vengeance on truth seeking souls like me. Perhaps at the resurrection Christ will surprise you all when he turns to the Christadelphians and says of me: "Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

    I rather doubt it, but science has revealed some quite extraordinary things over the past three hundred years and I am quite sure that we all still have much to learn.

    Having exhausted this subject with over one hundred posts maybe we should look at some more recent blogs on this site and discuss something different? Or should we head over to Berea and straighten out their thinking?

    Ha ha! - I love you guys!!

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  94. liketwerLet them alone. They be blind leaders of the blind, and they have fallen into a pit of their own digging.

    I confronted them with much of the same material I've put to you, and got thrown off the site (BTDF) for my pains.

    I was vilified violently, and even strangers took the miscreant to task for the violence of the outburst.

    I was not even embarrassed by his words, merely ashamed that a leading light of that forum (some 60,000 posts to his credit) could be such darkness.

    The moderators did nothing.

    However, the Lord will do the judging, not me.

    But I am interested to see you saying or implying that they have abandoned the Genesis account in their evolutionary zeal.

    They are too blind to see that their brand of theistic evolution carries the distinct implication that Genesis is mistaken, and if so, must be abandoned. They want their cake and eat it.

    You are bright enough to see that, and so is Dawkins. Both hostile, and both correct in clearly seeing the consequences of the theory.

    It is most unfortunate that the barbershop quintet(?) is still singing their sad song. Some never learn without pain.

    But as I say, let them alone. They be blind leaders of the blind, and they may one day emerge from their ditch.

    I'm not too optimistic, but...

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  95. Asyncritus:

    You can say all you like about your Berean brethren and they can be disloyal and spiteful to you; but here in the Ex-Christadelphian fellowship we follow a higher moral code and we try to avoid that sort of behaviour. I urge you and the Bereans to be reconciled with each other and look for the good that lies within all of you. You are destined to spend eternity together and I would remind you that is an awfully long time to be stuck with people who tick you off.

    If you really can't stand each other, then consider joining our fellowship. Here you get all of the upside of living an estimable life and bringing goodness into the World, but without the downside of eternal life with a bunch of boring Christadelphians.

    And anyway, I think that those guys secretly admire you. I hacked this from their site the other day:

    "Asyncritus is doing great work out in South Africa for a few months. He used this as the basis of a lecture in Soweto and drew 47 visitors of whom 4 are now attending the meeting, says the local ecclesial newsletter."

    See what I mean? While they were struggling with the notion that Lawrence Crouse's "Universe from Nothing" came out of a void containing energy flux and therefore was not exactly "nothing", you were using the Capistrano Swallows to bring Sowetoeans into the Faith! Now they think that you are a hero.

    I urge you to be reconciled with these people and they to you. Please reply to this post saying something nice about the Bereans.

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  96. John

    I'm embarrassed that you should be the one telling me to say something nice about them. I should have done that of my own free will and volition.

    I didn't, so I stand humiliated.

    To be fair to me, I didn't know they were doing this until you brought it to my attention the other day, and I haven't really had time to consider my position vis a visthem.

    I have done so now.

    To be perfectly candid, I pity them more than anything else.

    That such talent should be wasted in support of a theory that is coming apart at the seams with every day that passes is pitiful.

    That they should waste their time unprofitably venting their spleen on me is flattering, and worthy of compassion.

    If indeed they quoted that newsletter (and I presume they must have done something of the sort, because the number of visitors is correct),then I admit to being surprised.

    And I will do as the Lord commands: I forgive them, and I refuse to hold their sad behaviour against them.

    'But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.'

    I definitely don't want that to happen.

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  97. Asyncritus:

    You have done a wonderful and admirable thing and I am proud to have to as my friend.

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  98. "You would not believe how open-minded I am."

    Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.

    ReplyDelete

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